Posts on what we'd like to see in a new pre-pro?

New to the forum so apologies if I didn't see any forum posts on this topic. I'm wondering if there are any threads related to what we'd like to see in a new pre-pro (someone suggested a name of "999"). I'd like to replace my (very) aging Lexicon MC-1, primarily because it doesn't handle HDMI at all. Even though I spent $4k on it originally, I was single at the time...so these choices aren't necessarily mine alone to make. This time, I really don't want to drop $2k+.

The 975 initially looked promising. From what I read it supposedly sounds fantastic, including 2-channel music, and has most of the needed features. I would have pulled the trigger a year or more ago, but the lack of a Zone 2 killed it for me. I have to have that (it's been in budget AVRs for decades), plus would LOVE full HDMI v2.0 compliancy (including HDCP 2.2 support), but can live with HDMI 2.0 pass-through for now.

Are the Outlaws soliciting input from anyone in an organized fashion? I'm assuming there won't be any updates to the current 975 platform. Any rumors on when something new might be coming and what it might include?

New processor is in the works right now and is currently slated to be out around the start of summer.

Considering I ordered a Model 975 this afternoon I would have to say the thing I would like to see most would be a coupon for a 7500 amplifier.

Sorry Dan. Could not help myself. I did get a Galaxy SPL meter ordered so I will be ready

Any clues on what it might include? I'm trying to hold off, but my Lexicon isn't getting any newer.

Apparently the new immersive formats, like Dolby Atmos and DTS:X (both companies outed Outlaw Audio as a licensee).

More about the new processor here:

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubbthreads/ub...94504#Post94504

Thanks Sanjay! Now I wonder what the pricing will be..."substantially higher" sounds a bit daunting.

Less daunting than buying another Lexicon, if that's any consolation.

I would think Outlaw will be in the $1500 RANGE if the previous targets are still valid.

Given the feature list, that's probably realistic...I was just hoping for something sub-$1000.

How does the licensing process work? Does Outlaw have to pay a fee every time they silkscreen one of these names on the faceplate?

I would like to clarify my comment above. When I said silkscreen something on the faceplate that automatically assumes the associated technology is used within the device.

Quoted from xenonman: "New processor is in the works right now and is currently slated to be out around the start of summer."

"With product quality, performance, and reliability being the essential qualities of any Outlaw product, we are deliberately taking a measured approach with regard to development and introduction date."

My thinking is, add three months to the "start of summer" estimate. I'm hoping for the next holiday season. My current 975 is proving to be a great stopgap until Outlaw's latest and greatest arrives. It's making the wait more bearable.

With HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, it should have 4k video to go with the immersive audio formats.

From the update, it sounds like the new processor is going to be pretty whiz bang. Based on what they are adding I agree the beginning of summer is very optimistic. I love the idea of both object based codecs being in one device. The addition of HD radio is also a nice touch. I do wonder what they will use for room correction and how the price point will change.

I personally don't really care about the HD radio, but am very curious what will be used for the room correction.

I didn't see anything in the Outlaw post that would lead me to believe there would be any room correction in the new processor. I'm guessing they might skip it to avoid any additional licensing, but we'll have to wait to find out.

I'm not cutting holes in my ceiling yet...

As the (cancelled) 978 was to include XT32 room correction, I'd be REALLY surprised if this new pre/pro didn't include either XT32 or something similar.

Room correction would still be a valuable tool for those owners that don't wish to use the newer codecs and I think will likely be provided in some form.

An analyzer function with 8 to 10 bands of user definable parametric eq would be something I would buy into. Automated room correction set-up always seemed clumsy to me making the process harder than it has to be. Put up the analyzer in an OSD showing separate time align/EQ functions. Either process could be automated or manual at the users discretion.

Once the time alignment is done the EQ process is straightforward enough. Find ring/null and level same

and a dim-able display please

It is good to get an understanding of the fundamentals of software based room correction -- http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201071room-correction-a-primer-html/

Same author, little different perspective -- http://www.hifizine.com/2010/09/the-three-acoustical-issues-a-room-correction-product-can%E2%80%99t-actually-correct/

I think I have posted this before, it mostly explains the hows and whys of FIR filters (that are the basis of how Audyssey works) in contrast to "parametric EQ". Of course there is some "propaganda" too https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/215529-MultEQ-vs-other-equalization-methods-

There are other folks that probably find the limitations of FIR filters detrimental, and that is why I say there is a little "propaganada" in the piece.

I also know the folks from Dirac claim to a propriety means of adjusting for room acoustics -- again, they want you to try and ultimately buy their software / products, but the mostly informative info should help understand why a traditional parametric EQ dialed for flatness (or even some suitably 'warm' target...) can't really do as much as true high resolution correction -- http://www.dirac.se/en/technologies/dirac-live/technical-description.aspx

I know that Peter is aware of these things too and it will be interesting to see how he approaches them...

I have been doing some reading regarding some of the various correction methods and options.

I find it interesting that you included the Acoustic Frontiers site. It has been a site I have visited regularly for some time and have found the articles quite informative. They are big fans of Parametric EQ but seem to advocate using it sparingly which is a philosophy I share. I particularly like the article on base management.

Unless the center channel throws things for a loop (not expected) I could get by with two bands of EQ both below 100hz and have something most people would find quite pleasant. I understand that as an installer that does not work for you but for me it makes life quick and simple.

I readily concede the point that I am in the minority. I like reading your posts and always learn something from them

renov8r,
Those are nice articles. You're right, there is a little bit of snake oil in the Dirac and MultiEQ articles but the Mellor articles are very good.

Back in the late 80's some friends and I built a prototype FIR based equalizer. The advantage being that FIR filters are linear phase and thus you can have multiple filters at different frequencies that at the end of the day all sum up with the same group delay. Back then each filter circuit was the size of a pizza box and not very practical. Alas, we did not patent the idea...(End old man rant)

Everyone is touting their particular solution. In all honesty both IIR and FIR filter have their pros and cons. A FIR filter depends only on the input data to calculate the output. The IIR filter uses the input data AND previous output data to calculate the output (i.e. it uses feedback). And THAT is the only real difference between the two filter structures.

The problem with feedback is too much can lead to oscillation. This is great if your name is Ted Nugent, but not so great for home theater. However IIR filters are well understood and can be designed to avoid oscillation.

The other issue (not necessarily a problem) is that IIR filters have non-linear phase. I'm not going to get into Z-transforms which explain why the phase is non-linear. However I will say that I have never seen anything that explains how much non-linearity has to exist before you actually hear a difference.

To say that a FIR filter is better than an IIR filter just because it's a FIR filter is misleading. As always, it's your ears that should make the determination.

Oh, btw, the impulse response of your room is what it is. Unless you change your room (treatments, carpeting, adding more people, etc.) you aren't going to change it's impulse response. Any filter you add/change to your system is going to alter its impulse response, so yeah, everyone is modifying the impulse response of their system whether they call it that, or not.

Yes, it will be interesting to see if the new processor has room correction. I'm still thinking "No".

I truly don't know why they would not do it from a technical perspective. The cost of high speed memory and DSPs has fallen significantly. There are open source software solutions that could be burned into the firmware that might not carry the "name recognition" of Trinnov / Audyssey / Dirac / TACT or similar but neither would they carry any licensing fees or threaten to raise the ire of "North American manufacturers" that might than force the contract assemblers to "knife the baby"...

http://records.sigmm.ndlab.net/2014/03/essentia-an-open-source-library-for-audio-analysis/
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/brutefir.html#hardware
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/stk/


It would be more than a little silly for Outlaw or anybody not in the "this costs more than your house" part of the AV market to build an "outboard" room correction DSP when the on-board chips almost certainly are more than capable of handling this and frankly unless you have stock in a cable firm the thought of buying more interconnects (and the potential to make the noise floor dirtier) is pretty unappealing. You have not seen Behringer or any other "pro audio" firm offer up DSP EQ box with enough XLRs to cost effectively handle all the channels of home theater because it is more than a little nuts to re-process the sound between the pre-amp and amp(s) and/or sub(s). If you tried to include some kind of "digital multi-channel output" you probably break the HDCP content chain unless you specifically built the thing as "pure HDCP 2.2 switcher" and that assumes that someone actually makes a "full color space solution"... http://www.techradar.com/us/news/televis...dcp-2-2-1256763

Frankly the move of Onkyo/Integra off Audyssey and onto to their own "private label" solution half makes me think that some "genius with brass balls" that works in Audyssey's licensing area tried to extract an unjustifiably large fee for continued of the software and triggered the migration off their platform but that is "business reason" not any technical dissatisfaction with the firm/ solution...

Hope the new processor includes a standard 15amp AC inlet like Marantz and not a quirky figure 8. Please think about that one Outlaw.

I was very interested in the Outlaw 978. After I learned it was cancelled, I bought a Marantz AV8801 and have been very happy with it. Now, with Dolby Atmos and DTS-X, I again am looking at pre/pros with the new Outlaw at the top of my list. I'd like it to have terrific audio and video (of course!), be smooth in operation and NOT HAVE the streaming apps like Pandora, Spotify, internet radio, Wi-Fi, blutooth, or other tech that is redundant with other components I have in my system that I feel do the streaming thing much better - like my Sonos connect and Roku. I do want room correction as I feel the Audyssey XT32 in the Marantz has worked wonders for my room. Asynchronous USB would be nice. If it does have internet connectivity, I'd like an app for control from my phone. Good luck with this new pre/pro Outlaw, I'm rooting for you!

Ready to buy as 975 but if this thing is under $1200 I might consider it.
Room corretion is a must. I agree, no streaming and no need for bluetooth. I have all that. I would think most would by now.

I'll need some monoblocks for some front Atmos. My M&K rears already fire up at the ceiling. Its gonna get crowded up their.

Does Atmos provide an option for just two front up firing speakers?

OK,

Atmos
Room correction

From everything I have read the Atmos speakers are intended to be in addition to any other speakers in a 5 or 7 channel system as they get their own specific signal. It sounds from your post that you are considering using the rears in some sort of dual function. I believe Atmos may provide the capability to use just two speakers but they suggest using 4.

Yes, you can have just two height speakers. They can be ceiling mounted heights or virtual heights (upfiring speakers). And that pair of virtual heights can be in one of three locations: up front, mid room, or behind you. Lots of flexibility.

I thought the new pre/pro was to include DTS-X? Outlaw wasn't mentioned as one of the companies that will have DTS-X product in 2015 on the DTS website at the unveiling today....what gives?

Under Outlaw's announcements, the one from 1/21/15, they describe their new piece as having DTS-X.

And they were also listed here...http://www.twice.com/news/components/dts-lines-audio-suppliers-support-dtsx-surround/55429

Due to an inadvertent error by DTS, Outlaw Audio was not mentioned in the earlier version of their press release on April 9th announcing their new DTS:X technology. Since some press reports used the original, rather than the corrected version for their stories and reports, we wanted to address any possible confusion about the Outlaw's commitment to object-based audio in general and DTS:X in particular for our next generation high-end surround processor.

This link http://bit.ly/1O2wDmQ will take you to the official, corrected release. Note that Outlaw Audio is on DTS’s official list of all publicly confirmed DTS:X licensees as of April 9th. In light of this, many reports and web sites including Twice, as noted here, http://bit.ly/1aBYqO1. have updated and corrected their stories.

As we reported in January, http://bit.ly/1I34jil our new high-end processor will include both Dolby Atmos and DTS:X. However, please remember that the development of any new product today is very dependent on outside software. For that reason, it is simply too early to say anything beyond what we have already announced other than that the project is proceeding nicely and we already have alpha hardware in hand.

We hope that this addresses any concerns about our new processor with regard to DTS:X (and Dolby Atmos) and look forward to bringing you more news in the months ahead.

Peter

Hmmmmm

I'd like to see digital outputs for at least the main (LR) channels (in addition to analog). I run active crossovers on my main speakers that have digital (and analog) inputs. If I could run a digital signal to the crossover I'd eliminate a full set of A2D and D2A conversions. Thoughts?

Why buy a nice pre/pro with a high quality DAC, then bypass the DAC?

To avoid the downfalls of passive crossovers - have you ever heard an active crossover speaker system?

If you want to feed the crossover with a digital signal, you might be better served to do that directly from the source device. You might lose volume control, but you would anyway if feeding digital from the pre-pro.

Is there any one out there making a prepro or AVR with digital out?

Indeed that would be an option, except I switch back and forth between 2.1 channel for music and 5.1 for theater. If I intend to use my preamp for the subwoofer xover (which I need to do if I intend to allow other (surround / center) to also use the sub, then it gets more complex. I might just have to get a switch that I can flip to allow me to direct the input to the sub from either source. hm...

I would like to see Outlaw keep DPL IIX on their new pre/pro, as well as the new Dolby Atmos upmixer. I use DPL IIX for my 2 channel sources, and have read the new Atmos upmixer is terrific for movies but not as good for music. Denon & Marantz don't include DPL IIX on their current Atmos offerings, but I have read it's up to the company getting the license which features of Dolby they want to include. Outlaw - please consider it!

Has anyone seen any updates for the new pre/pro?

nothing since the last one a while back.

Thanks

Any word on when this may ship, cost, etc.??

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry, that was my initial reaction. Outlaw has expended lots of effort in answering questions about future products, explaining why original estimated ship dates were missed, etc, so they've adopted a policy of near-silence about future product details, especially regarding mass production and ship dates, because there are so many external influences on such. We'll just have to be patient.

That's funny.

I'm reminded of what I was told a number of years ago when I was looking to upgrade:

"If you buy an Outlaw you'll get something that will outperform anything in it's price range but you'll get it only after Outlaw is satisfied that it meets or exceeds their expectations because they won't ship until it does."

So I bought one. Then I bought another one. Then I bought a third one...

You might say we're "hooked".

OK, the summer solstice is here, so it's time to give us a little fresh info on the new pre/pro

I can't buy a 4K/UHD TV until an HDMI 2.0 capable, HDCP compliant, 60FPS Pre/pro from Outlaw becomes available.

I undestand color and image specs are being rewritten, and as an equipment developer that would be reason to wait, but we want news from Outlaws that's fresher than 1/24/15.....

Love to see Outlaw finally **** rather than just perpetually remaining on the pot. Guys there will always be a better one down the road. There is no such thing as a futureproof smartphone.

Any word on the new device??

No. Not to my knowledge. I wish...

Just checking in at the Saloon to see if there is anything to report on Outlaw's new pre/pro. My 990 is hanging in there so no need purchase anything now but it is getting really "long in the tooth". I don't want to purchase a 975 as a stop gap when the new pre/pro is just around the corner. So, Outlaw, when might we hear about the new pre/pro?

Yeah we are a whole season beyond the original estimate. It is time for an update or many will just move on.

After the 978 fiasco, I don't blame them for playing it close to the vest - but an update on it's progress is overdue. I would really like to know more about it to compare to offerings from Marantz & Yamaha.

I finally moved on. I waited through the previous pre-pro (997, 978) development cycles and, while I was disappointed that they never made it to market, I understood the reasons. I've been in product development for 20+ years so I get it. Information for those releases was iirc more forthcoming and frequent. I could evaluate my needs versus currently available products and the future Outlaw pre-pro.

I couldn't do it with the current Outlaw pre-pro cycle. Information is too infrequent/sparse and couldn't evaluate currently available products versus the future Outlaw pre-pro. It made the decision to not wait fairly easy. Maybe the Outlaws will offer an upgrade program from my 990 (which I still own) to entice me to give it a look upon it's release....

The last update we got for the new processor was, what January?? 9 months ago?

Candyman, I'm about to do the same thing. I've been waiting and waiting and still waiting some more! There is so much that I like about Outlaw that I'd really like to stick with them, but the reality is they just don't have a product for me right now and I'm ready to upgrade my Pro. The 975 is a nice system but its a far cry from what I'm looking for in a system. I was seriously considering the AV7702, but that is way overkill for what I want. As is the Yamaha CX-A5100 that has just come out. My current HT is just a 5.1 environment and I have no plans (or room) to add more speakers. And to be really honest the majority of my critical (music) listening is in stereo!

My primary interest is in the best quality audio I can get for my money. Watching movies in surround sound is relatively low priority for me and quite frankly the 5.1 surround suffices for me. I am currently leaning towards getting the Emotiva XMC-1. On paper and according to most of the reviews the audio on that system is reported to be outstanding for the money. Furthermore the have a dedicated 2-channel configuration that I can use with my Oppo to get what I hope will be outstanding stereo listening.

I really wish Outlaw would give us a little information about what they have coming. Like Emotiva, I believe that the Outlaw Pro will be focused on superior Audio performance and not so much on the "Bells and Whistles". Although they've said that it will support Atmos which means it might be a bit more than what I'm interested in having in my home. But I have no way of knowing since they aren't letting us know anything about the system.

I might hold on another week or two, but I'm pretty sure I'll pull the trigger before the end of the month.

I think you would be surprised at how well the M-975 does audio and had I known it would sound this nice I would have tried harder to keep the Polk Audio SDA's. My amp has no provision for balanced inputs so the M-975 not having them was not a deal breaker for me. My Dared SL-2000A tube line stage does not have them either. For longer runs the XLR cabling can be quite nice.

Other than the connectivity and room correction what would you be losing? I would like to get my hands on one of Tony's DRT units to see how it might respond to the usual upgrades.

I gave up guys. I kept hanging on and hoping Outlaw would come out with a newer/better processor.

I stuck with my trusty 950, which I loved. I waited and waited for the processor that never happened. I got a 975 the first day it was available and I have HATED it from the first time I used it until the day I gladly pulled it from my rack. If anyone wants an amazing deal on a 975 barely used, let me know.

Anyhow, I just purchased and set up a Marantz AV8802A, and all I can say is WOW. It was a breeze to set up, Audyssey is simply amazing. No more tape measures and Radio Shack SPL meters.

The AV8802A not only sounds amazing but it does everything you could possibly want (now or in the foreseeable future) and then some.

After being a HUGE Outlaw fan for 15+ years I'm finally out.

I wish you guys would have at least told us when something newer and better was coming along, I finally got tired of waiting.

Hopefully I'll be back one day, I still love Outlaw, so I'm sad to leave the family.

Even I'm running out of patience, guys. I certainly don't expect announced ship date, or target month, but I'd like to hear about progress.
Cain, most of us don't have the budget for a $3,999 Marantz AV8802A. That's why we are Outlaw customers. I'd expect the next gen Outlaw to be less than $2,000.
Note to self: "Patience is a virtue".
Reply: "It ain't forever".

No information since February and at least a few months past the last targeted release date leaves me to think that issues have cropped up with the implementation of both Atmos and DTS-X. With all the questions popping up about the new processor I would think someone from Outlaw would be issuing a statement soon.

Dang XenonMan, 2,076 posts! Outlaw should send you a plaque for your forum involvement. OR, make you a beta tester for the upcoming pre/pro ;-)

Gonk who hasn't posted in a while has more than 14000 posts.

14,000+ ??? Wow - he must be retired to have that much time for posting.

Not retired since the biggest reason he doesn't post much anymore is that he got real busy at work. He is member #53

Not retired since the biggest reason he doesn't post much anymore is that he got real busy at work. He is member #53

I'm number 67, but a man of few words. Of course I could up my post count if I double-posted like you just did ;-)

That's how XenonMan gets his count up - he double posts everything. But yes, gonk used to be much more prolific on these boards before he got so busy.

Edit: Hank beat me to it! Simultaneous postings! I'm only member 489, I have no claim to double digits.

Hank, take a look at the Marantz 7702, selling price around $1,200.00. 11.2 channels, Dolby Atmos. Audyssey "Platinum".

One thing to point out is the AV7702 isn't HDCP 2.2 compliant. Otherwise, I might've quit waiting a while ago. I don't upgrade pre/pros often, so I'd like to make sure it contains at least what might be needed now to make it as future proof as possible. But, I'm pretty frustrated at this point also.

To correct this post, I was looking and see the the Marantz AV7702mkII is HDCP 2.2 compliant.

I hate to, but I was offered a Marantz AV8802A for 15% off list price at a brick and mortar store. My understanding is I should be able to add DTS:X when available via firmware update. I may jump. I lived through the 978 situation and I think I may need to take this. You're happy with your purchase Cain, yes?

Maybe the reason for the New pre/pros delay is DTS:X. I have read they are having problems with the codec and it won't be ready for existing DTS:X ready units until early 2016. If that's the case, I could see Outlaw delaying it's new pre/pro until it could ship with DTS:X already installed; avoiding an update. Even if this is accurate, I would still like to see a feature list of the new unit.

Thanks for the Marantz info, guys. TL5, the DTS:X delay might explain the Outlaw delay, and yes, we'd like to see a feature list.

You're welcome Hank. I've been around here a very long time too, and wanted to update from my original 950. I waited and waited and waited on the 978, then I finally broke down and got the 975 and hate almost everything about it. I actually put it back in the box and used the 950 for the last couple of years.

I finally started looking around after giving up on waiting on the newest processor and no information from Outlaw.

I was not interested in room correction, but after getting the Marantz 8802A all I can say is WOW! Audyssey is so easy to set up my wife could do it, it sets up all your speakers and subs and alters the sound including the room itself. It measures speaker distances, sets delay, sets phase, levels, everything very simple and automatic. I set up my 7.2 system better than it has ever been (particularly my dual subs) in less than 15 minutes, no tape measure or SPL meter needed.

legivens, I actually auditioned a KRELL Foundation 4k. The thing is VERY expensive but it was such a nightmare to set up so I sent it back. Folks kept telling me over and over to check out the 8802A and I'm glad I did. Simple to set up, all kinds of flexibility. I love being able to talk to it with an iPad or web interface, and I love the display and ALL the available inputs. I'm not sure if I want Dolby Atmos but it is nice to have that capability.

The sound is very open and clean, perhaps a tad on the warm side, which I like. Also, the surround channels never sounded so clear and individually defined. If you can get it at discount, that is a good deal. The 8801 was a Stereophile "A" list processor, and everyone universally says the 8802A sounds much better.

I'm very happy with it, and expect to have it for quite a while.

Thanks Cain.

Other than the lack of the volume being displayed what was your prary objection? One of the things I find interesting about product forums are the differences in what we prefer. For me I would prefer the display could be shut off during operation like the OPPO.

I find the blue of the power button to be annoying. If I hear sound it is a fair bet the Outlaw is turned on, I do not need the Blue light cutting through my bifocal lile a laser to remind me. I miss the soft Red power on indicators.

Put a piece of black electrical tape over the light to remove the distraction.

I bent some 1/8th smoked lexan to make covers. One for the power button on the Outlaw and one to cover the HDTV logo that lights up blue on the Dish receiver. Maybe its just me but Blue has always been my least favorite color when it comes to indicators.

Believe it or not, there is/was a company selling sheets of die-cut translucent plastic "dots" to use to cover LED's on equipment. They would cut the light to barely noticeable. Don't buy them - buy premium 3M electrical tape instead. (I work for 3M )

http://www.amazon.com/LightDims/b/ref=bl...e-bin=LightDims

http://www.lightdims.com/store.htm

I wish I had seen those before buying the lexan. For the amazon price they are definetly worth trying. Thanks

I have a few different types. The regular ones work nicely for the obscenely bright LED on the 2200.
The silver & white ones pretty much obscure the LED. Try them all and you'll find one you like.

Thanks a lot, rdgrimes. There goes my chance to make a few sales of electrical tape

The boat shop probably uses enough in the way of 3m products to have put one of your kids through college.

Send me your info and we will make sure to put your name on future order forms.

Don't think I haven't used it a few times. These are nicer though, cause you can still see the light. Like sunglasses for the LED.

Don't worry Hank, I just bought a role of "3M Positionable Mounting Adhesive 568" at a price that should send a couple 3M kids to college and their dad into a comfortable retirement.

j/k It was actually pretty reasonably priced and really cool to boot...

Thanks for the 3M support, guys! We do make the strongest adhesives. Next time you're on a flight, rest assured the plane is held together by a few rivets and lots of 3M adhesives. Maybe I should work a deal with Outlaw to include a roll of Super 33 with every product sale...

Instead of the Super 33 make mine the slow cure 5200 please. We buy it in case lots around here. Great stuff.

How does the Super 33 differ from the Isotac <sp> that we used to buy on rolls back in the late 70's early 80's?

Kind of a trip down memory lane for me. I was looking at some receipts and realized I bought the Outlaw 750 (their first product) in August of 2000. I'll be using it to run my ceiling speakers for Dolby Atmos. I will give the Marantz SR5005 that I've been using as a pre/pro (I also bought from Outlaw, when the 978 fell apart), to a friend. That was December of 2011. I've been waiting and waiting on this new processor and I finally broke down. I purchased a Marantz AV7702 mk2. It'll take a while to get it, then the extra speakers installed and set up, but I have to say I hope it works out well. I just feel kind of guilty for moving on concerning the processor. I own quite a bit of Outlaw gear and love all of it. I'm sure our relationship will continue; just not on this processor.

P.S. I buy 3M products also and use 3M electrical tape to black out the displays on my two Monster Power Supplies. :-) Annoying......

"ISOTAC" Y9460, Y9469 and Y9473 ADHESIVE TRANSFER TAPES
DESCRIPTION: The "ISOTAC" range of Adhesive Transfer Tapes is a 100% acrylic polymer
adhesive, supplied in roll form with siliconised poly-coated protective
paper liner for ease of handling and application.
APPLICATION: "ISOTAC" Adhesive Transfer Tape, available in three thicknesses, is designed
to bond two similar or dissimilar materials permanently in a wide variety of
industrial applications. "Isotac" Y9460, 0.05mm (2 mils) thick, is intended
for use on relatively smooth, non-porous surfaces. For applications involving
relatively rough, textured or deeply embossed surfaces, which cannot be joined
together with a thin adhesive layer, Y9469 0.27mm (5 mils) thick and
Y9473, 0.254mm (10mils) thick will readily conform to such uneven surfaces
to permit more intimate surface-to-surface contact and substantially improved
adhesion.
Super 33 is our premium vinyl electrical tape. Formula is so secret, we don't make it in our Asia plants - only in the U.S.
Now, let's get back on topic before Peter boots me outta here

As long as we are not complaining about anything you are probably safe. I had no idea an electrical tape formulation would be considered top secret. Now I want some.

It should be included with all future Outlaw products. (See what I did? right back on topic)

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/default/blush.gif

No worries Hank. I got your back.

I read your post above with great interest legivens. In the age of lead free solder it is nice to hear a piece of modern gear is hanging tough for 15 years.

Is it possible to do audio output leveling? When I am channel surfing the dish reciever volume output is all over the place channel to channel.

Is there a way to do "on the fly" monitoring of the analog out and use that info? If this is doable then it should also be possible to have a commercials setting that would lower those levels.

Audyssey has a setting for dynamic volume control which senses large changes in volume and levels them out somewhat. You can adjust it three different levels or turn it off, unfortunately the 975 does not contain Audyssey. Unknown if the new pre-pro will. I would call Dish and ask them for some help. I have a similar issue when I switch sources but not when I am using the same source.

You experience no change in volume when cycling through channels with your Direct TV? Maybe it has something to do with ones location within the satellite footprint as the neighbor has the same experience with Direct as mine with Dish. Switching from HD to SD channels will normally have greater differences leading me to think it has to do with the audio format changing and how it is handled by both the Dish/Direct receiver as well as the Outlaw.

Everyone feels differently of course but for me if Audussey is the only solution I would rather live with the problem. I might just be one of the lucky ones who can get by without it but Audussey brings little if any benefit in my room. Room treatments take care of everything save the lowest frequencies where Audyssey is no help. Everyones experiences and rooms are different of course so what works for me may or may not work for others.

Other than the normal volume changes associated with different program material I have not noticed a significant change from channel to channel. Recognize that since many programs are recorded at different levels it is not uncommon to experience a volume change when going from one to the other. Audyssey does level this out somewhat but as you point out to the expense of SQ.

Audyssey xt 32 corrects down to 10hz....

My posts got deleted about the Marantz 7702, I'll take another shot. :-)

Somebody mentioned that they could not afford the Marantz AV8802A, so in absence of an Outlaw Pre/Pro with all the current features and specs (Audyssey, etc), I suggested the Marantz AV7702, that is when my posts got deleted.

I only suggested that pre/pro (again, in absence of a comparable Outlaw pre/pro) because it is sold here on this web page...

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/av7702.html

I'm sure when Outlaw ships its upcoming pre/pro they will stop selling the Marantz, as they should.

Until then .............

I found a post from you back on page 7 of this thread about the 7702

So last night my 990 dropped all audio from all sources. Checked the amp and it was fine so I unplugged the 990 for the night but still no audio in the morning. The only thing left was a hard reset which I was really hesitant to do. Followed the directions in the manual and the audio came back! WHEW! I was afraid my 990 had finally crapped out and I was facing a large expense just ahead of the holidays. If it had finally stopped working I would likely have left the Outlaw family versus trying to fix it or buying the 975. Come on Outlaw, throw us a bone with some info about your new pre/pro!

In this case I believe No News is Bad News. There are so many high quality processors and receivers available that Outlaw is losing possible customers as they go forward with their SOTA processor. By the time it comes out it may very well be overpriced for what most of us wanted to start with.

I don't generally consider myself a particularly "optimistic" sort of consumer but I do believe that Mr. Tribeman has enough experience with product development and marketing to not have made the announcement about the forthcoming high-end processor if he had not overcome all the hurdles that have resulted in the abort of similar efforts over the past few years.

That leaves open the door that a "previously unmet hurdle" has arisen. My best guess is that just as Outlaw was scheduling production ramp-up their "partner" was unable to deliver on earlier promises, perhaps due to changes in lending policies that have hurt many Chinese firms -- http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/aug/26/china-economy-woes-extend-stock-market It would be no surprise that problems with the overall economy have put new pressure on contract manufacturers.

The result of this very well could be an effort for the Outlaws to find additional funding, which is never quick / easy, and/or pursue an effort to essentially sub-contract out more of the sub-assemblies and then do final assembly with another "partner". That partner might even be the kind of firm that has the ability to provide 'value' that other firms cannot -- witness the decision of another noted North American based audio electronics firm shifting their production to Vietnam...

For all we know Mr. Tribeman is now learning Portuguese -- http://techinbrazil.com/largest-electronics-manufacturing-plants-in-brazil

As I've said before, given the emphasis that Outlaw placed on adopting next generation technologies like Atmos, I don't see them giving up this without a major fight.

For the record I am also generally optimistic about the new processor but I was also in the same frame of mind for the 3 that were cancelled. FWIW, I am not in the market for a new processor as I don't think Atmos or DTS-x will be the game changer advertised. I didn't buy into 3D either. I built my theater room with the ability to adopt one of the object oriented codecs if they become mainstream enough. I believe PeterT probably has the necessary smarts to get this thing to market but WHEN? Another Xmas season is going by with all the attendant "Black" days and still nothing. At the very least they should throw us a bone for planning purposes. I really believe the decision to have DTS-x is likely delaying release. The big boys saw fit to make their processors firmware upgradable for DTS-X vice hardcoding it in. When it was first announced it was a big deal to have both products included. That really made it unique and worth what would likely be a bigger pricetag. But now the market has adjusted and even lightweight processors are including both for around $600. If it had come out on time at the end of the second quarter of this year it would have made a splash but now I am afraid it is likely to be just another piece of gear that is catering to a very small amount of source material. For me I will stick with my 990 for music and my Onkyo for movies.

I tend to agree with what you say about throwing us a bone. I had (and still have) the 950, but HDMI switching became an issue. When the 978 was cancelled, I bought a Marantz SR5005 from Outlaw to buy some time. I was very excited about the news of the new processor and have hung in as long as I could. Personally I think the object based codecs have a chance of making a big splash in the dedicated home theater environment. I hope I end up being right. I'm spending my money betting on it. I didn't think that about 3D or even 4K at this point. To your point of offering firmware updates later, I've purchased the Marantz AV7702 mkII which is HDCD 2.2 compliant and there should be a firmware update for DTS-X in the future. I just became frustrated with the lack of information from Outlaw and have a good history with Marantz receivers. By the way, a new projector I have on the way has 3D. Not a selling point to me, but maybe it'll be a nice novelty. With the grandkids? :-)

I have a feeling that with the number of respectful, thoughtful posts in this thread (and the number of bail-outs) that Peter will soon have an update, good or bad, for us.

Hank, I hope you're right. I am about to pull the trigger on a pre/pro purchase and its not an Outlaw. The 975 just isn't what I'm looking for right now. Maybe as a second system but not as my primary. Right now I'm wrestling between getting an XMC-1 for the short term and then getting the new Anthem AV-60 when it becomes available. The XMC-1 would then move to my Audio only room and the Anthem would be in the HT. Or maybe I just wait for the Anthem AV-60 and decide what to do in the Audio only room. But either way as it stands now Outlaw isn't in the picture. Why? Because I have no idea what they have coming.

It would sure be nice to have an update on what is coming, even if they don't announce a timeline, just the current feature set would be interesting.

The biggest difference between things like 3D video and Atmos / DTS:X is that the video comes with some nasty downsides. Sitting in your viewing room, whether it is a dedicated home theater or just a comfy chair with a flat panel, with a pair of active shutter or even inferior passive polarized glasses makes you look like a dork. You are not going to want to do that unless the experience is so mind boggling that it blows away "regular" viewing. Sadly, unless you invested in a projector that had world beating output / resolution or a flat panel that could be tuned for both eye melting brightness AND crisp blacks, 3D had some major negatives.

With the object-oriented codecs that are the heart of DTS:X and Atmos all the good stuff about multi-channel GETS BETTER and the only "negative" is how many drivers / amps you need to run, which to most of us that like AV hardware is not a negative, but an opportunity

I have heard several demo systems with Atmos and it truly does enhance the "immersive" effects as well making for a considerably larger "apparent sound stage". It generally also has better "localization cues" for things ranging from on-screen action, outside of frame effects / conversation and even main channel dialogue. With high quality drivers (one of the local shops has a Focal system that probably costs more than most Porsches) the improvement with 9.4.2 setup over a similarly costly 7.1 (which already blows away 98% of what not-so-skilled home owners fall for) is pretty remarkable. I also know from experience with prior AT / Outlaw and similar products that with a quality pre-pro, well built but not stratospheric speakers and careful setup an affordable-to-mortals surround installation can be practically indistinguishable from the high dollar stuff.

So yeah, I am eager to see some good news...

mdrconsult, I sure wish I had an audio only room! :-) It would be totally different from my 'media room'.

renov8r,
I really liked your post. I believe in a home viewing environment, you're not going to look any more dorky than when people sat in the theater to see Avatar, so I'm okay with that part. Now whether it can actually deliver at home (besides novelty for the grand kids), I don't know yet. 3D isn't and don't think will ever be a selling point for me when looking at any type of display. 4K's not either yet, but a possible chance it might be in the future.

I've actually only heard Atmos in a single demo room with a 5.1.2 setup, but was really impressed with the placing of sounds. They seemed to sometimes float(?) between the main and back surround speakers. I run 7.1 with multiple subs, so I'll be running a 7.2.4. As far as the placing of the ceiling speakers I am still battling myself since I have two rows of seating. I think your statement about correct placement is key. With a fairly long (22ft) room, I believe they can make a big difference. I don't think I would ever (famous last words) go for more than 7.2.4 but, I like your statement 'all the good stuff about multi-channel GETS BETTER and the only "negative" is how many drivers / amps you need to run, which to most of us that like AV hardware is not a negative, but an opportunity' ;-)

Not to get too far afield, but if you get a chance to see a really high end 4K projector you should. I have seen several of the Sony units now. They have come down in price but are still a large investment.

That said, the thing that people kind of forget when they complain about the lack of 4K native content (and I have seen some of that too, via Sony's weird round server thingy...) is that up-scaling has MASSIVELY improved. To the point where I honestly did some back-to-back viewing of plain old DVDs and then BluRay and even broadcast / cable / satellite and was BLOWN AWAY with how well suited upscaling is to a 4K projector. Today's built-in upscaling devices have a whole lot more CPU power behind them and much smarter algorithms so there are NO nasty artifacts / color smearing. It is doing much more than old fashioned "line doublers" ; the units are extracting / interpolating extra data to drive the additional pixel elements seamlessly. If you watch something like live sports (which tends to not be compressed for obvious reasons) you can do frame comparisons and you'll see that while it cannot create detail that is not there (say like making fans in the 50th row completely detailed) what is does do quite well is enhance ALL the picture elements to such a degree that you are so impressed you don't really care about insane levels of detail -- you get much enhanced foreground elements / edge control, better color fidelity across the whole image, impossibly fine grain edge to edge and very very pleasing / natural motion.

And there really are no downsides -- it is not all like the bad processing that some cheap sets still use to get higher artificial frame rates. It does not alter the response time or unnaturally reshape quick moving objects. Obviously this takes LOTS of CPU power, but if you see the smarts that are packed into game consoles / high end video cards this sort of processor is obviously this kind of thing is no longer as costly as it once was.

Do I want native 4K content? Of course! It will give the kind of reproduction on large home projectors (and the biggest flat displays...) that previously ONLY happened in the nicest 70mm type theaters. Highest level of true detail, finest control over color space, best native contrast ratio all will be as intended by the content creator, BUT as the 'engines' that drive the displays are VASTLY improved the lack of native content is not as big a deal...

I'm currently watching a NHL game via 1080i cable on a plasma panel with "only" 768 vertical lines and it looks terrific. With normal vision at typical seating distances higher resolutions don't really matter so the move to 4K seems a lot like a marketing to me. I felt the same way about 3D but I must admit I have seen a couple of movies in 3D that I thought benefited from the technology. I can wear the dorky glasses in the privacy of my home. As noted above what has improved along with the screen resolution is video processing and color/black levels. These advances have me considering a new display regardless of resolution. The ability of the new Outlaw pre/pro to upscale to the higher resolution of a new display or just get out of the way of the bluray player or display is important to me. I think I'm like a lot of folks who have 5.1 or 7.1 systems where Atmos etc are not practical. I think those advances in audio are terrific but I'd hate to see them delaying Outlaw's new pre/pro. Other pre/pros provide an update via software and maybe Outlaw can do that for the new audio formats to get their upcoming pre/pro out to anxious customers.

A plug-in card that contains the new DTS and Dolby immersive codecs would be an interesting concept. Buy the new pre/pro in the near future and then IF you want to invest in additional amps and speakers for the new codecs, buy the plug-in daughter card when it becomes available. What was the old high-end pre/pre that was designed for plug-in upgrades - Theta? Outlaw could do it for a reasonable price. I won't be going Atmos or X in the near future, but would like to have top end audio in a new pre/pro without the cost of the codecs/processing built in.

Theta's "upgrade path" hardly seems "cost effective" -- $7000 "trade in program"?? http://hometheaterreview.com/theta-digital-announces-two-new-casablanca-prepros/

OTOH NAD has a modular design in their pre-processors and receivers that seems cost effective, at least as means of keeping the units useful for folks who need / want 4K video -- $199 looks like a solid value http://hometheaterreview.com/nad-announces-4k-ready-mdc-program/ (Peter Tribeman's experience with NAD really is very impressive -- almost four decades ago his leadership stands out as a high water mark in what can be acomplished by a firm infused with deep engineering talent -- http://www.tonepublications.com/old-school/nad-3020-integrated-amplifier/)

In tangentially related news, ATI, another long term 'friend' of Outlaw is jumping on the Auros bandwagon -- http://hometheaterreview.com/ati-to-support-auro-3d-audio-format/ I don't follow the Auro stuff as closely, but it seems like they are aiming at the "crazy high end" -- http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/What-s-Up-with-3D-Immersive-Sound.shtml http://www.twice.com/harmans-jbl-synthesis-systems-upgraded/58955

Might it be that Peter's elves are working overtime to incorporate all three immersive audio formats???

renov8r, re-read my post. In no way did I imply that Theta's program was "cost effective". I referred to Theta as "high end".

The NAD upgrade is indeed cost effective, but it's a video module and of no interest to me. I run my OPPO BDP105 directly to my display device, TV/projector. I suggesting plug-in design for audio upgrades/additions.

Sorry, Hank, I know that you recognize Theta as part of the weirdly esoterically pricey kind of gear that most of us value oriented Outlaw-types scratch our heads over. Even though I do know a few folks with dedicated theater rooms in their custom built homes I cannot say that I have seen the Theta gear outside of showroom / AV convention.

My gut tells me that the "design pre-work" that NAD did include to allow for card swappable video is considerably less involved than the kind of integration points needed to swap-out the cards needed for multiple new channels of object-oriented / immersive sound.

From what I've seen even stand alone equalization devices, from firms like Wisdom, DEQX, or Lyngdorf, have exceedingly small market bases and thus need to cover very high development costs. It still strikes me that as far as the actual "hardware" of these boxes they do not seem be something that would be horribly costly to build well -- typically they do rely on XLR jacks, and of course need to be designed for very "clean" operation, but with the core dsp processors falling in price it seems hard to believe that no one enters the market...

"Plug-in" cards for things like expanding audio channels or functions would involve a completely new decoder chip. These things are more less SOC devices now days, meaning you replace the entire audio board to expand channels or functions. Even DACs need to be changed in that scenario. Basically - the entire machine.

Guys, I was more or less wishing out loud. A plug-in audio upgrade card infrastructure would be a new from scratch design, but I still think it could be done for much less than the esoteric brands. rdtrimes, you're probably correct and it may be plug-n upgrade cards aren't doable. I don't know - the Marantz AV7702 mkII unit looks good and the Emotiva unit is now on sale, so I'm really wondering what Outlaw is going to come out with. It appears they will miss the holiday season market :-(

Maybe they'll have it ready for tax refund season! I picked up my 975 at the tail end of the intro period with my tax return so there's a precedent for that time frame.

A bit of deja vu?

There was a monster long thread at AVS discussing compatibility issues with some of the NAD modules. Is this still an issue?

Having lived with the 975 for a while I would like to see more flexibility on the audio side of things.

The crossover point is adjustable but not the crossover slope. Is this something difficult?

I would also like to have the ability to have different settings for the stereo mode. What sounds nice with everything running for TV and movies is not necessarily optimal when listening to the radio. The crossover point for 5.1 is not necessarily the same for the stereo mode. I would like to have a separate adjustment for crossover point and slope. I have no idea how difficult any of this might be.

You set your crossover point based on the capabilities of each speaker. If you don't change out the speakers, the crossover point should stay the same whatever mode you are listening to. I am not sure what advantage you would gain in adjusting the slope if you are not swapping speakers, since the slope is just a rate of change for the transition from one side of the crossover to the other. I don't know about most folks but when I adjust the crossover for my setup, in a given room, I don't mess with it much after that. It sounds as if you would like to use it more as a sort of treble/bass control. There are a lot of equalizers out there that may serve your purpose but I am pretty sure Outlaw is done with firmware updates for the 975 and probably have gone way past the point where they could change it for the new processor.

As the system is more for TV/Movies than music the crossover point is set at 80hz as per the THX recommendation. I use vintage Polk Audio Monitor 7's for the front R/L capable of playing much lower. The -3db is 35hz. I have tried them at all of the crossover point options including running my fronts as large and prefer the result crossing at 80. Tone controls set to flat

For TV and Movies it works great. The bass cabinet disappears into the room just like it should and the night mode works without sounding like I threw a wet blanket over the speakers. It is working well and we are happy with the results.

Until I switch it over to the stereo mode. In the stereo mode the 975 defaults to front R/L + SW crossing at 80hz because that is where I set it during set-up (after some tinkering because I did try all of the available settings before settling on 80). When listing to music the transition between the Polks and bass cabinet can be heard clearly as it is not a smooth transition. It would be nice if the settings for the stereo mode could be adjusted independently of the settings for TV/Movies. If audio settings were independently adjustable then the icing on the cake would be to let me have control over the slope as well. If I could slope the crossover point down at 6db per octave instead of 12db the musical transition between the fronts and the SW would be smoother and closer to transparent.

For TV/Movies a 6db slope of the crossover would most likely have a negative effect.

EQ is different discussion but one worth having. Instead of something along the lines of Audyssey include parametric eq. (no idea how many bands would be needed but would be easy enough to determine) Set-up then could consist of plugging in a mic to the unit and setting distances and levels and I have no personal objection to this being done manually. Others will not want to do anything in a manual mode. Once the levels and distances are set have the new pre/pro display a RTA graph of the room in the set-up OSD. With parametric one can set the iso center and width of the filter to adjust as needed. This process could also be automated but I would still want the option of adjustment.

Simple

I am not sure why your system seems to act differently for music vice other audio sources but the equipment should sound the same based on system and equipment response. It could be that the response of the sub is better suited for movies than Music. Or it could be that the room is affecting the sub right around the crossover point such that you hear it more with music. Velodyne used to make the SMS-1 digital subwoofer management. Outlaw sold them for a awhile, but they are no longer. It would give you precise control of the crossover from 15 to 199 hz in 1 hz steps. It also allows you to adjust the slope in 6db increments from 6-48 db. It also analyzes your setup and displays a curve to allow you to make your choices easier.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/velodyne-sms1-digital-drive-sub-manager-12-2005-part-5.html

The amount of program material heard around 80hz is much higher for music than for Movies or TV. Concert performance disks excepted of course. It is not a glaring error and the wife and I are the only ones who notice. Different media types are mixed differently as well. The audio mix on my BluRay of Surfs Up has little in common with my CD of Steely Dan's AJA when viewed from the mix engineers point of view.

I went from Polk SDA's fed by a Pass Labs designed pre-stage so I knew stereo quality was going to take a hit. It came as no surprise the $500.00 Outlaw could not match the stereo output quality of the $1,500 stereo only unit. I listened to that stereo for better than 15 years. I can hear the difference where the extra crossover point has been added.

In the spirit of full disclosure the Outlaw is much better for TV and Movies even when listening two channel only. Fed via HDMI from either the Dish receiver or OPPO BDP-103 the Outlaw does much better with downmixing. For two channel CD reproduction I use the analog out R/L from the OPPO BDP-103 and HDMI for all multi channel. Radio stunk on ice this morning so I loaded a handful of Little Feat disks into the Sony ES2000 carousel feeding the Outlaw via optical through the toss link, (SPDIF I think it is called). It sounds nice but could be better.

Am I nitpicking? Probably


It is a wish list thread so I thought I would throw out a feature set I think myself and others might find useful. While I would prefer a full range option the Velodyne unit you linked is similar to what I was thinking. With the current level of processing power available building something with those capabilities (and more) into a Pre/Pro should be a doable thing.

What do you use as a subwoofer?

I am using a Polk Audio PSW-125. 12" 150/300 watt (nominal/ peak)

Not a beast by any means but does well in this smaller room.

I wonder if you're hearing a difference in phase between your mains and the subwoofer in the cross-over frequencies when you listed to music? If they are out of phase they could be fighting each other.

Does your sub have a phase adjustment that you can tweak or just a 0/180 degree switch?

I think it is only 0 or 180 but will check when I get home. I did not think of phase issues and it could explain what I am hearing.

Thanks EEman

I would run the front R/L full range only for music and take the hit in the lowest registers if it did not require going into the menu to diddle the settings every time.

switching from 0 to 180 with the phase switch made a big difference in music reproduction. Not sure if it will present any problems for TV and Movies but when we played with it at the old house we decided there was little if any difference.

Thanks again

I would still like to have more adjustment options and flexibility. From what I see at other boards would show I am not the only one

You sub has to be in sync with the other speakers or the bass and LFE will be muddied up. I suspect that is what you were hearing when the crossover was reached. Hope that fixes the issue.

It made an improvement. For TV and Movies it does not seem to make much of a difference. For music it is night and day in this room. Listening to organ music I can still hear the transition but that is to be expected. I would still like to have the adjustability but that is no guarantee it would be any better.

It makes an argument to go back to the SDA's and getting rid of the bass cabinet all together.

Limited phase adjustability at least the sub if not all.

Forgive my ignorance in asking as none of my HT front ends came w/an "auto setup" feature. I have & will continue to rely upon my ears.

Do the set-up apps in many of the AVRs do any sort of tuning or tweaking of sub or channel phase?

How tough is it to give a pre/pro manual phase adjustability either all or just the sub?

Thnx, Tony

Some subs have infinite phase adjustment and at least Audyssey will adjust the LFE level of the sub after it takes measurements via microphone. Again the SMS-1 gives that capability and much more but you are likely to have a hard time getting one at a reasonable price.

How about higher max output from HDMI inputs? My previous pre/pro (Rotel RSP-1068*) would drive my system MUCH louder**.
** same amps & speakers!

Jim, CS, says it's the different type of volume control. That doesn't explain why I get more output from coax or optical from my CD player or use the optical from cable TV box, respectively.

The Outlaw 975, regardless of signal, @ 0(!) is about equal to the above* ~80. Yeah "100" is pegged for same*. I pre-set the "max" @ 95 to prevent the kids from mistakes. What's more the LR EXO*** was @ Unity*.

Using the Outlaw: Input*** @ +6dB(!), respective outputs*** up an add'l 3dB, and 975 LR outputs @+6! Yet even @ 100 still doesn't "do it" like the 1068. When I finish all-channel speaker mods I expect a little more output but I doubt the HDMI through-put will rival pre-mod optical/coax or 1068 @80+.

The trade off(?): easier-on-the-ears SQ.

End of rant. Tony

My output from my Onkyo varies somewhat between sources so that I have to adjust whenever I select a different device. The output of my OPPO even varies a bit between playing a disc and using the USB input to play MP3s. I has been noted before that the 975 max output doesn't get to where some are used to. I haven't heard of anyone with a way to increase its output

I find the Outlaw's HDMI outputs pretty consistent. As I wrote earlier optical* & coax** into the 975 are louder. But even maxed, compared to the Rotel*** has a ways to go. 90+ was louder and, for it***, still clean.
* optional from cable box
** either coax or analogue - new long before HDMI V1

Where did you have the volume set prior to running the levels?

I notice a difference when switching inputs. The Sony ES2000 SACD is louder through the toslink than analogue IC's. Only slight difference with the OPPO between analogue and HDMI with the Dish receiver audio being slightly higher via HDMI than analogue.

If I go by the numbers on the 975 it does seem I have it turned up higher than other pieces from the past but achieving the desires listening levels has never been an issue.

Kinda loud(?) @ -20. Channel levels using the Parasound 855 across the front as follows:
LR +5 XO input @+6; HP@ -3, LP @ unity,
CC +1
Sur +2
Formerly w/the Rotel RB-985 across the front due it's higher gain:
LR 0 XO input @+6; HP@ -9, LP @ unity,
CC -4
Sur +2
I hope that answers your question Steve.

I never compared output, analogue to digital, etc either w/the1068 or 975. Further, I bought the 975 to, first and foremost, decode the newer Codecs. Add to that how HDMI reduced cable clutter. But... ...if the optical or coax inputs will pass the newer Codecs, I'll deal w/the clutter.

Before I return to work next week I plan to do some intense 2 channel listening, swapping between the 855 & 985. I've read on both the Polk & AVS forums Parasound has the edge over Rotel across the frequency spectrum. Both high current designs w4/ohm ratings. While the 855 gives up a little power, it boasts a higher damping factor.

We shall see.