975 And Stereo?

It's likely that I'll be spending a portion of my tax return on a 975. Currently the hub of my system is my TV because my old Denon receiver has no HDMI capability.

Right now my room is set up with stereo speakers and a LFM-1 only. I'd like to continue with this configuration for a time, mostly due to laziness.

I've gone through the 975 user manual and noticed that its speaker configurations do not include 2.1. It appears that I could select a "5.1" configuration, then specify "none" for the center and rear speakers. This should create no problems for stereo sources, but I'm wondering how multi channel movies will be handled. Will rear and center channels be dropped, or will they be mixed into the main left/right channels?

Has anyone done anything similar?

Even when I take the time to properly wire the room, I probably won't want a full 5.1 or higher. Though I have one that is well matched, I've always felt center channel speakers are redundant in nearly all situations. I've always felt there is minimal return on investment beyond a good 4.1 full range quadraphonic + sub configuration, and if you are adding small or low quality speakers to the system, the additional channels are a detraction.

Yes, you would set the speaker configuration to 5.1 and shut the center and surround speakers off. All of the info will not be lost - it will be down mixed in to the L and R. Lots of 975 owners use the unit in 2.1.

In the manual for operating the remote, page 9 of the PDF file:


T.
STEREO/MENU button
(see page 39)
This button deactivates any active surround modes and
switches the Model 975 back to stereo operation. If a
subwoofer is connected and configured through the
setup menu, it will still be active in stereo mode. This
button also operates the Menu function on devices that
the remote has been programmed to control. Note that
it does not operate the Model 975’s on-screen menu.

I am going to disagree pretty strongly about a well-mixed soundtrack played through a high quality 5+ channel set-up being something that is either distracting or degrading to the experience of watching movies / sports / concerts. What I will say is that there was a tendency years ago for some movies to sound like there was excessive "audio panning" where the levels for actors / effects in the left, center and right channels change faster than is optimal. That is probably because the firms that encoded those soundtracks had engineers that were used to two channel techniques.

There are issues with how some audio mixing was done -- if the technicians who created the master literally did not have an active center speaker in their mixing booth / screening room they tend to naturally mix for just a left - right presentation. The issue is further complicated by folks that deliberately choose to have 5.1 signal sent through a 2 or 2.1 channel system. The technical details on this have been known for a long time and really are easy enough to avoid -- http://www.minnetonkaaudio.com/info/PDFs/ProLogicII_MixingGuide.pdf

Making matters worse is the fact that the "competing" systems from DTS seem to go out of their way to blur the difference between a DISCRETE and MATRIX way of reproduction -- http://www.timefordvd.com/ref/dts-ES.shtml

Of course the reality is that any non-discrete system has lots more room for bad reproduction as whatever "signal steering" is created from some matrix as opposed to "baked in" by somebody that SHOULD have actually tried to lay down sounds that are correct in each discrete channel as intended.


The fact is this sort of thing is a lot more common with older content and broadcasters who "cheap out" by not using the fully DISCRETE channels -- discrete channels have been commonplace since DVDs displaced other formats.

If you are using a DVD, BluRay or even high quality "live" signal from a respectable company like DirecTV or a good cable operator / OTA major network there is little reason NOT to use the true discrete 5.1 channel info and play it back via a high quality system...

Making matters even more confusing are the various options for LOSSY vs LOSSLESS compression:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-5infYQhZBU8/learn/learningcenter/home/hometheater_surround.html

The interesting thing is that looking to the future there are going to be MORE options about how both discrete and matrixed systems work. In fact one of the things that I like about the newer Dolby Atmos theater set-up is that they actually specifying FIVE channels for the front alone to fill-in left-center & right-center so the reproduction is smoother: http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Asset...-for-Cinema.pdf There are not yet a whole lot of details on what sort of home audio systems might benefit from the lessons learned in commercial Atmos installations but more immersive soundtracks will generally ALWAYS sound better with more physical channels of amplification and appropriate speakers...

I wonder if the old Denon is set up properly?

I will agree with Renov8r. Assuming you are playing either a Blu-ray or DVD cut by a reputable producer the discrete channels are much better than they used to be. These days almost 60% of the audio and almost all the dialog is done by the center channel. While it is possible to use the phantom center channel it is not the optimal setup, especially on movies with a lot of soundfield. Using the mains to reproduce the sound of three channels calls upon them to do lots of extra duty in an area they are not likely optimally designed.

As an update, I did purchase the 975. Between it, my PS3, and Netflix, running with a stereo speaker set up was... less than intuitive.

I was hopeful that the firmware update would resolve some of the problems because some of the fixes described were similar to my experience:

-LFE/Subwoofer management issues related to specific formats has been corrected
Often my LFM-1 just didn't seem to be receiving any signal, and there seemed to be discrepancy between the built in 975 LF test signal and the levels from sound or music sources. Setting it by ear is iffy, I know.

-An issue with inconsistent volume levels between surround modes has been corrected
From a PS3/Netflix 5.1 source, output levels were very low. If available I would toggle to the stereo output in Netflix and levels returned to reasonable.

-Issues with incorrect front panel display icons have been corrected
As input streams change format, my speaker configuration display on the 975 changes, sometimes omitting the sub.

It turned out that my 975 shipped with the 5.3 firmware, so none of this has been resolved. I know my observations and this description is not exhaustive enough for thorough troubleshooting, but I never made the time to really analyze what was happening. I could get it 'good enough' for the little time I've spent watching.

After considering some local used Adcom and Rotel multi-channel amps, today I ordered one of the refurb 7075 amps via Outlaw's eBay sales. ($500 shipped, 5 year warranty, still one left.) I'll probably get out the drill and fish tape this weekend and install some wiring and panels. I'm hopeful my 5.1 speaker rig will smooth some of these behaviors.

I'm most looking forward to experiencing LCD Soundsystem's "Shut Up And Play The Hits" as it was mixed in 5.1. I've still only watched it in stereo.

If you look at what I wrote, you authored a fairly extensive disagreement to something I never said. However, I think we can safely say we disagree that more channels = better.

The problems of acoustics in 500 seat theater will never be the problems I need to address in my living room, thank god. I sit in a sweet spot. I tune my system for the sweet spot. Sitting elsewhere will not be as great, but easily in the "good enough for the chump that sits at the end of the couch" range. Technically yes, more channels/speakers may expand the sweet spot, and even improve the experience. Not enough for me to throw money at, or for my friends to even distinguish. Having 5 front channels in a 16' square room with one couch would be ridiculous. Return on investment, as I originally opined, diminishes quickly beyond four well configured corners and a sub.

Stereo imaging, and specifically creating the aural illusion that a voice is coming from the space exactly between two speakers, or even left or right of center, is easily demonstrated, extremely effective, and totally widespread in nearly all of music we all buy and listen to for our lifetimes. In the front plane of sound, adding channels is a significantly diminishing return. My bet: In a blind test, switching from stereo to comparably mixed discreet LCR 3 channel, most listeners will not notice. Some may be able to tell a difference but not be able to determine which is which, or even which they prefer. Some may rate the 3 channel experience some fractional improvement, and some prudish audiophile will claim it sounds so horrible their day was ruined. The point is if your are spending $100 per channel and your $200 stereo system sounded "awesome", then your $300 3 channel is only going to sound "possibly noticeably fractionally more awesome". About a $2.00 improvement at a $100 cost.

If it is just a center voice track, or even a full range signal that is in a static position, I don't think down mixing and sending to a discreet center signal to the full range LR speakers would noticeably diminish the listening experience. I concede that for movies or other recordings with discreet channel content that pans across the aural pane through the L,C,R channels, down-mixing could cause audible problems.

Yes, discreet channel recordings should be better on equally discreet playback systems, but I maintain that the listening experience in a common room, from a 4.1 system and discreet recording, would be difficult to distinguish from a comparable 5.1 or 7.1 experience. Even down mixing will fall between "no one can tell" and "sure but who cares".

It's pointless for me to grumble about the decision to create the home theater center channel. It's entrenched, and I'm still glad 5.1 killed surround sound.

Please explain how 5.1 killed surround sound. It may be the most widely used version of surround sound and is the most likely to have an actual encoded discrete set of tracks.

We would be glad to discuss all of this with you. Please contact us, M-F 9:00am - 5:00pm EST, at (866) OUTLAWS.

Sorry, my dumb. I never say "surround sound" unless I'm bragging about my Star Wars THX Laserdiscs. I meant Pro Logic, Dolby Surround, or other methods of deriving rear channels from a stereo signal. I didn't realize "surround sound" was still applied to modern multi channel methods as well.

Thanks. If I were more patient, or if the problems had greater impact, and if I didn't have an Outlaw 9075 amp in transit right now, I would be very interested to work with you to find a resolution to my stereo set up issues. It was always a temporary set up though, and for the most part I've been satisfied.

I hope I don't sound too disgruntled. I've been thrilled with my LFM-1, and these 975 stereo issue have not deterred me from investing in a third Outlaw product.

I am excited about having the rest of my speakers back in use! If the 975 misbehaves with my 5.1 set up, I will look forward to discussing it with you.

Did you get the firmware update which was recently issued installed on your 975?

Output levels in 5.1 are normally lower than stereo output. Most likely due to downmixing.

Also for the 975, a 2.1 signal will show the SW box for the sub, while a multi-channel signal with an LFE track will show the box with the LFE label in it.

I found time to set up the 7075 yesterday. I had been using B&W 603 s2 speakers with the Outlaw LFM-1. I've now included B&W 602 s2 for the left and right surround speakers, and the CC6 s2 center.

Unfortunately I've discovered my LFM-1 is not working. I have not exhaustively trouble shot it, but I'm confident this can be attributed to some of the problems I was having earlier with my stereo set up.

So disabling the sub in the 975, the 5.0 set up has been wonderful with some stereo music sources.

Sorry the LFM is not working, I assume you checked the cable and the fuse? Call Outlaw and maybe they can help.

Yeah, it's a bummer, but the LFM-1 has been served well. I'm optimistic it can be repaired. It's a specifically off topic here so I may start a thread in the legacy product channels. Yes, I did basic troubleshooting.