Moving to Europe. Will RR2150 survive the current ?

I can't find my manual at the moment, (it's buried in its packaging with other manuals somewhere) and I'm actually listening to music at the moment so I can't turn the thing around.

Is the RR2150 equipped to handle both 110/220W ? Most electronics such as laptops will handle it just fine with an outlet adapter, but I just want to make sure that I don't fry my precious !

Forgive me if the question is that which an third grader would be able to answer, moving (especially to another country) really takes its toll on one's nerves !

Best,

Doug

Just from looking at the huge rear panel picture , it looks to be 120V only. The manual also says 120V, 60Hz. Looks like you'd need a step-down transformer.

OH my. Thanks G. Tru-Blu just sent me a message with the same sentiment, and now I'm really bummed out. I'd imagine that such transformers are fairly costly ? Time to use the ol' Google !

Doug

Well, apparently step down voltage transformers aren't terribly expensive, depending on the maximum power consumption of each item, but now the thing is to find a place which sells VERY reliable products.

If anybody has any information (perhaps the Outlaw staff have some suggestions, Scott ?) regarding my query, I'd seriously appreciate it !

Doug

I'd be offly careful about that, the current difference isn't just voltage, it also involves phase. My last experience with this was back in the 90's when I tried to use an american TV for my daughters US VCR and game console in Scotland . No damage to the VCR or game console, but it fried the TV in less than a month.

OK Doug,

You pushed us to the edge of sympathy to take care of a loyal Outlaw customer.

We actually do have in stock brand new dedicated 230 volt Model 2150 units which among other things, are also set to receive European AM and FM.
Call Scott Monday and we will see if we can work out something with you.

Peter

I'll be honest Koyaan, I haven't the slightest idea as to where and how phase comes into the equation. Is it possible that it applies only to television sets ? As an aside, didn't you have to use a PAL regulated television set vs. an NTSC one ?

Doug

Phase is the same (both are single phase), but frequency is different (60Hz in the US, 50Hz in Europe) as well as the different voltage. There are units specifically built to allow 120V/60Hz units to operate on 220V/50Hz. That being said, Peter's offer (lining up some sort of swap for a unit with a power supply that can operate on 220V/50Hz) is even simpler - especially with the different tuner.

Europe does use PAL instead of NTSC for its standard definition video format (and the difference between 50Hz and 60Hz means that you have to be careful with PAL/NTSC conversion to avoid speeding up or slowing down the signal). Neither PAL nor NTSC apply with HD source material, but it will still matter for DVD's and other SD video sources.

Wow, what an amazing offer, PeterT!! And the fact that 230V units are actually in production suggests that word about the RR2150 has gotten out in some European countries…my guess would be Germany or the Netherlands, though the UK is also a possibility. How cool is that?

Actually, we have been turning down requests from overseas customers to buy 2150's ever since we were on the cover of Stereophile. To make the conversion, it was not so straightforward. Anyway, we just received a small run of fully converted 2150's last week and Doug's post was coincidentally perfectly timed.

If we can work out something, he will be the first. (Of course they are $18,000 each Doug. )

Who'll be the coolest new neighbor on the block?

I was using the NTSC TV only for my daughters NTSC VCR and game console. e wouldn't work with a PAL TV.Though it got fried even with a transformer.

Post retracted. (by me, lil' ol SS). All I'll say is I appreciate everything Outlaw tries to do for its customers.

You guys are great.

Doug

By the way... $18,000 ? CHUMP change !

Hello all ! Had to use a proxy in order to log in to these forums, so I can't say I feel welcome anymore

The wife and I have managed to settle down a bit, here in Hungary. She's working in a nice five star hotel (her field) and I'll be teaching English until I find something more along the lines of my work.

When last we spoke, I was tempted to try out a European production model which Outlaw had offered to try and get to me. I changed my mind though, because it just didn't seem cost effective in that we don't know how long we will be here for.

I've been looking at some audio gear here, especially some Rotel stuff on the lower end of the spectrum. However, while I was browsing another site of a totally different nature, (lighting equipment for flash photography) they linked to three websites which they recommend for the purchase of step down power transformers, for their gear.

This made me wonder about whether or not I'd be able to get away with using an 800-1000 watt true magnetic power transformer for my RR2150 rather than needlessly spend more and more $ on gear which may or may not be kept.

I realize that this was sort of covered already in this thread, but I just want to make sure nothing was missed. The biggest concern and question was that of 60 vs. 50 Hz coming into play. Gonk already stated that both were single phase units, and the converter handles going from 240 to 110, so all which seems to be left is the 50Hz issue.

I suppose this question goes out more to Scott and Co. at Outlaw, but also to anyone whom might have had experience with their audio gear and transcontinental usage.

Alright kids, be well !

Doug

I note that on the product description page for the RR2150, the word 'only' follows the 60Hz indication.

With some experience living in a 240v 50Hz country, my electronics concern was primarily with fact that a coil's inductance generally means that lower frequency current meets less resistance, and in a transformer, a magnetic fields that rise and fall more slowly transfer power with less efficiency.

I don't know what kind of power supply is in the RR2150, but my equipment at the time used standard multi-tap transformers with solid-state rectifiers that fed an ordinary compliment of capacitors. My solution was to run my step-down transformer at 100v, not 120. At idle, the power supply transformers in my gear remained nominally as cool as they did at 120v 60Hz. But for use, I kept the volume low to moderate. With less voltage to start with, and slightly reduced transfer efficiency, I didn't expect the amplifier power supply to be at it's full voltage nor be able to meet heavy demand.

I would expect the RR2150 to survive and perform well if not pushed, as long as there is sufficient 'headroom' in the power supply design. Caveat: my remarks are a best guess based on the equipment I had at the time and my experience with it. I wish you well.

well look's like i'm going to have to wait before i order the as I require 220-240v..

50-60 hertz relates to your v-sync on your power line cycles..


last time i enquired about a step down transformer they were over $200 AUD, now power plug converters probably $50-60 AUD.

each countries prices can be different when it comes to step-down or step-up convertors..

if someone fried a tv then, the possibility of a power surge could of caused damage, 1st time i ever heard of a vcr taking out a tv in any manner..

I could never understand why the yanks have a fixation on running all electronic gear on 115-120v ac..

Have you contacted Outlaw yet to ask what current production units offer on power supplies? It's been nine months since the post reporting that Outlaw had samples on hand that offered 120V/240V power supplies. You might not have to wait very long now.


Frequency of power distribution did traditionally affect the refresh rate for CRT's (which I'm guessing is what you mean by "v-sync"). It would probably be more accurate to say that 50Hz and 60Hz are the frequencies at which alternating current power is distributed from generating plants.


No particular reason. Except for decades of tradition, hundreds of millions of square feet of buildings that are wired for 120V at the point of use, countless industries that manufacture products for 120V (light bulbs, hair dryers, alarm clocks, TV's, computers, cell phone chargers, computers, toaster ovens, and probably one or two other things), and the National Electric Code. It's sort of like my fixation for breathing oxygen - my personal infrastructure is built around the idea of having O2.

Commercial structures in the US do use other voltages (lots of fluorescent lighting is actually 277V/1ph and we frequently use 480V/3ph equipment for large loads like air conditioning and big motors because it reduces wire sizes) and residences routinely use 208V for appliances like ovens, air conditioners, and clothes dryers. And of course we distribute at much higher voltages, with utility transformers providing end users with either 480V/277V or 208V/120V. At the end of the day, for basic "plug loads," 120V is a necessary fact of life.

All my stuff seems to work pretty well at 60 HZ and 120V. Frankly I have never understood why Europe is at 50HZ.

because that is the power cycle for ac, which runs at 240v for the most part, I think in most cases in the US I would say it was a by-gone era of DC power plant generation before AC was a standardised for use throughout the states..

I also the the reason 120v is pushed so much because you can hold more people on it..

as for 3-phase it depends on the connector used, which depends on the current you get..

3-phase wiring is usually a 4 pin setup, using 2 pos, 1 neg and 1 ground.. now gow much current you get will depend on how big the cable is..

getting back subject I was saying what i was saying because the documentation so far is still only stating 115-120v not 115-230v or 120-240v..


being in a country where your on 240v AC I prefer the unit support to 240v where possible, i don't like having to run power converters just so i can run 1 piece of equipment...

I'd like to suggest that we stick to facts. Saving that "is the power cycle for ac" and that AC is 240V is a statement that I can't quite understand, because alternating current can operate at any voltage and any frequency. A little research will suggest that 60Hz was chosen in North America because of several important scientists and engineers, including Tesla (who designed motors that worked best with 60Hz AC). Westinghouse actually started out working with 133.3Hz because they were using 2000RPM steam turbines and 133.3Hz happened fairly naturally. It was also good for lighting (fast enough to avoid flickering), but they found it to be a poor frequency for driving electric motors and they started looking at lower frequencies even before Tesla started pushing for 60Hz. In contrast, Germany seems to have been an influential factor in establishing 50Hz in Europe, which was based on an engineering preference to operate steam engines at 3000RPM. Each was developed on a different continent in an era well before today's global economy and communications. Likewise, each became so widely used that making a change is hugely cost prohibitive (not to mention really sort of silly since both work). I have not found anything that would suggest that either frequency is inherently superior to the other, although I bet some lighting designers would argue in favor of 60Hz because of the potential for 50Hz to produce a more visible flicker.

As for the voltages, I will re-iterate that none of us distribute at 120V or 240V. We distribute at much higher voltages because higher voltages allow us to have lower current when delivering the same power, which reduces wire size. It's simple economics. It's also why we use AC rather than DC in the first place. As for being able to "hold more people" on 120V, it's simply not true - 120V doesn't happen until the very end of the line and has no bearing on the distribution grid. A real reason that supports why 120V is used, on the other hand, is that incandescent light bulbs designed for 120V can employ thinner filaments than 240V bulbs while offering the same lamp life. That means they are cheaper to make, which was a really big deal eighty or ninety years ago (and still pretty relevant today). I've found some things that suggest power supplies for small electrical devices were also less expensive to manufacture. And by using a 120V/208V service, we can still use 208V for larger loads (such as ovens and clothes dryers) that benefit from the higher voltage. Likewise, commercial buildings can go up to 480V.


Yes, but nine months ago there were samples on hand. They may not get be standard, or the web site may not have been updated to reflect a running design change that doesn't really matter to most of Outlaw's customers. That's why I suggested asking Outlaw directly. They do monitor the forum, but they are fairly hands-off and may not have noticed your post here.


I agree with you on this - keeping it simple is always a good idea.

Also, DC power generation was never widespread because of the inefficiencies of distribution. The fight between DC and AC may have been spirited, but it was over long before anybody tried to establish national standards.

It's been a while since I did the math but I remember that when you look at the resistance of the human body and the amount of current that it takes to make one dead there are many more scenarios that can make one dead at 240V. Of course that is a gross oversimplification of all the factors involved.

The voltage at which the US operates the national grid varies from 240KV to 640KV. There are a few smaller voltages used but the are not common. Notice the voltage is at KILO-volts. This is the voltage which comes out of the power plants and on to the grid. Except for a very few exceptions it is always within a few ticks of 60 HZ. It is not possible to connect to the grid at any other frequency other than 60 cycles. The voltage has to do with transformers and the standards which were developed in the early part of the 20th century. AC power is much more efficient when it is transmitted at higher voltages and then stepped down to house voltage of 240 volts. This power is single phase and can be split into two circuits at 120 volts each. This is the way it is done and it is not going to change on this continent. In the second half of the last century all US power is at 60 hz. Gonk has already explained most of the reasons. Outlaw saw fit a while back to actually make a few 2150s which ran at the higher voltage but they likely need 60 hz power. That means you either run some converter circuitry or you don't buy one.

Actually, if I remember correctly, the 2150's in question were built with a power supply that was either 120V/60Hz or 230V/50Hz specifically as a way to support international customers. It would cost more as a result (not sure what all's involved, but you'd most certainly be dealing with a very differently-wound transformer) so I doubt that it became standard, but if they built a limited run that way for folks who wanted to use them in Europe and elsewhere I bet they've not sold a ton of them.

We do have a limited supply of dedicated 230VAC RR2150's. These units are not included in our current RR2150 promotion. The European version of the RR2150 is available for $799US. Orders for this special unit can be made by calling our order department at 866-OUTLAWS.

Is the power supply switchable between the two continents?

what I was getting at is 90% of the electronics gear within the US runs on a 120v system..

personally where I live it's 240v mains..

anything above this would be considered 3-phase wiring in relation to power demand, now in the case of the US this may sway a different way, as each country is different in regards to power generation and power supply..

No doubt. We are all clear on that. But what you were typing (and what we were all reading) was that it was somehow stupid for the US and Canada to have a 60Hz system, without trying to understand (1) how the electrical distribution systems evolved the way they did in different parts of the world or (2) why the US - the market where Outlaw has their business presence - uses a 60Hz system.


Which is why Outlaw has produced a small run of units with a power supply that supports either 120V/60Hz or 230V/50Hz. As Scott's post above indicated, they do have a stock of those. They don't list them on the site because demand is so small. If you want one, call or email them.


In the US, we see equipment at 208V and 277V that is single phase. We also see some 208V that is 3-phase, and most 480V equipment is 3-phase (although there is some 480V/1ph stuff out there - mostly equipment like small fan motors on condensing units that have 480V/3ph compressors). Large-scale power distribution is always 3-phase and typically at medium-voltage or high-voltage (well above 480V). All of that is secondary to what Outlaw builds, though, and we've gone over it before in this thread. US homes (at least the ones I can afford or am likely to be invited to visit) aren't served with 3-phase electrical service. Anything Outlaw builds will be 120V/1ph/60Hz because it is intended for home use in North America. The only product that might benefit from 208V/1ph would be the 7900 - it could probably support all seven 300W channels from a single 208V/20A or 208V/30A circuit - but it's much easier to go with a pair of 120V/15A circuits because that's how houses are normally wired. And even then, we're dealing with US power - 60Hz, not 50Hz. Voltage change is relatively straightforward - get a transformer with the right windings and go to town. You end up with some extra heat in the space and have to buy a box full of copper wire, but that's about it. The bigger problem is the frequency. It takes a little more care to address the difference between 60Hz and 50Hz. Since Outlaw is a US-based company with no sales network outside the US, it's hard to justify building power supplies that support both 120V/60Hz and 230V/50Hz. Why add cost to every unit built if only 1% or 2% of those units (or possibly even 0%) will ever be connected to anything but 120V/60Hz? That's why the standard RR2150 doesn't offer this feature.