RR2150 vs NAD C720BEE Help!!

My 1st post here

trying to decide between the RR2150 and NAD C720 BEE

Outlaw RR2150:


Pros:

simple bass managment/x-over selectable etc a big Pro, that one.
most wpc in my choice range
front mp3 jack (not critical)
detachable power cord.
USB (not critical)
separate headphone vol control.
Cons:
can only afford B stock for about $549 shipped.
hear bad things about vol knob and source being iffy.
QC issues?
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NAD C720 BEE:


Pros:
Lower Price, even for new.
great reputation; established company.
never heard of ANY QC issues.
50 wpc can be a lot more, AFAIK.
soft clipping
Cons:
power cord attached permanently.
"only" 50 wpc ?

can get it new for about $480 shipped.
about $450 refurb'd.

so i need to hear from you guys who have heard/owned both these receivers. SQ is my main concern, and good power. However, please be honest about the Outlaw QC issues...how much do they really bother you?
Thanks.

I can offer a thought or two about the cons on the RR2150. First, B-stock is generally not going to be a bad thing, as the quality seems to be indistinquishable from A-stock and the warranty is the same. Second, the volume knob may or may not bug you - it bugs some folks a bit, but others don't mind it. Third, I don't think I've heard of any quality control issues aside from some hiccups when they changed factories a while back, and that was all sorted out at that time.

What speakers would you be pairing with either receiver?

Seconded. I wouldn't consider the volume- or source-knobs "quality-control issues," either; like 'em or not, they're part of the design. Neither bothers me.

I've never owned a NAD C720BEE, but as I've written here before, I actually passed on one at an audio shop back when I was looking for a new receiver. The salesman thought I should go for more watts and, weirdly enough in hindsight, mentioned the Outlaw while offering me a deal on a higher-powered Marantz demo. I haven't looked back. Budget-wise I wish I could've waited for a B-stock, but at this point it's really no biggie.

Onix x-ls (classic) and x-sub

The source knob is fidgity, but it in no way hinders the performance or audio qualities found on the 2150. As for the volume knob, using the remote control is not the most ideal way to go about adjusting the volume if you need an ever so slight adjustment, but I find it to be only a slight inconvenience rather than a total turn off, really.

It's good qualities far outweigh those two minor things IMO. I've heard that NAD in a Harvey Electronics store, and found that it was decent for the price, but tonally speaking, I think that the Outlaw sounds a bit more musical, especially in the mid range. I found the mids to be a tad flat on the NAD.

The NAD wasn't a slouch though, by any means, I just prefer the 2150's sound signature.

doug

If you're going to really crank 'em up, you may want the 2150's extra power. I've got the X-LS classics in my setup, as I think you've already noticed, and they have paired up nicely. With an X-Sub in the mix, having the 2150's bass management would be handy - I'd start out setting it at 80Hz, as 60Hz is a bit closer to the -3dB point of 55Hz than I'd like (although you could certainly try 60Hz, as well).

Washburn,

I used to own an NAD L53 before I purchased the RR2150 and the sound quality is not even in the same ballpark. The L53 is a notch down from the C720BEE though. Personally, I find the NAD sound has strong bass, rolled-off highs and forward vocals. NAD seems geared towards sounding good at loud volumes. The Outlaw sound, to me, is much more refined.

Using the remote to control the volume is annoying. I used to have an H/K AVR30 receiver with a motorized volume control and it was nowhere near as sloppy as the RR2150. You can get used to it by using very short taps of the volume buttons (or get a universal remote like I did which can be adjusted to minimize this problem), but if your significant other has less patience it *is* going to be fustrating.

The source selection does sometimes miss the next input if you turn it too quickly, however I generally use the remote to select the source anyway.

I've owned my RR2150 (which was a B-stock) for several months now with no problems whatsoever. The sound quality is excellent, there is zero background noise, hum etc. You may want to have a look over at www.audioreview.com as well, there are a few reviews of the RR2150 over there.

-John

Thanks for your reply.
I can certainly understand the fact that the vol and source knob bothering different people to different extents, BUT:
how can this be a "part of the design"? you mean they designed it on purpose in such a way that the vol knob will have play and the source knob misses the sources selected? I would think this is a failure or an error in the design/construction, but I don't understand how this can be explained as part of design.

all that said, I'm one who value SQ more than anything else, so it's probably not gonna bother me much either...I'm leaning heavily towards ordering a B stock right now..
But I will not try to make it better by saying that it isn't a flaw in the design/parts. it is just that. Learning to live with it is what should be done, but not make it look like it was intended that way.
I probably read all the professional and non professional reviews available online now...none of them thought these 2 flaws mattered enough to not own the amp. But none of them thought it was normal in any way either.

Not trying to paint a rosy picture, Washburn. You'll have to ask an Outlaw designer for the logic behind each function, but since the RR 2150s keep rolling off the assembly line that way I have no choice but to interpret them as elements in the design. By contrast, for example, a small number of the first units that were shipped after Outlaw changed factories had a bit of voltage leakage that caused the display to flicker ever so slightly in "standby" mode. Outlaw found out about it and immediately offered to correct it because that was not part of the design. As a result, the display is not an issue that anyone who's purchased an A- or B-stock in the last year has encountered. For me, the equation is simple: Whatever's part of the design stays in, while what's not gets corrected.

Thanks for the response, TruBlu,
so you don't think oulaw remedied that because it was a small number, and that they didn't do anything about the vol/source knobs because ALL the units are affected by that?
Just wondering honestly.

The issue with the displays was a clear defect (part that wasn't within spec, basically) that they fixed. These other quirks are different from that. None of us know just what the design decisions were behind some of these issues. The source knob could have had the detents eliminated, but that might have been less comfortable because it would have turned more easily (thus making it easier to skip past a desired input). The volume knob's response to the remote might be the way it is because an alternative that was slower might have also relied on a different part (different motor) or additional part (separate speed control) that wasn't as transparent sonically. Or none of those could be true.

....what Gonk said, as usual.

Having been one of the those "complaining" in an earlier thread, the question of whether these QC issues (to use your term) bother me, is easy to answer.

No. Certainly, not enough to even momentarily consider taking advantage of the 30 day money back return policy. Nor were they bad enough for my wife (a confirmed technophobe) to complain about it after I sat down with her and showed her how to operate it.

Thanks guys...
your replies make me feel batter about all this.

I haven't heard the 720BEE, but before owning an RR2150 I had an NAD 320BEE integrated. Sonically, the Outlaw was clearly superior; the sound had a lot more "life" than the NAD, which sounded kind of sterile by comparison. I didn't find the source knob any problem at all. The volume knob, on the other hand, was something of an issue because I listen at low volumes, from across the room, and it was virtually impossible for me to adjust the volume properly with the remote - no problem with the knob, though. And if your CD player has variable output, it should be OK.

Ultimately, I ended up selling the RR2150 and upgrading to a higher end integrated. But if I were choosing between the NAD and the Outlaw, I'd choose the latter.

The NAD, I found, had a flaw of its own. The headphone jack is automatically "switched", so that when you plug in the phones, the speakers turn off. That seemed useful, until the day that the tip of my headphone plug didn't come out with the rest of it - and no one would fix this for a reasonable price. I assume that the 720BEE has the same design flaw. The Outlaw's headphone jack has its own volume control and is independent of the speaker amp - a very nice feature. Unfortunately, my new integrated doesn't have a headphone jack at all, but that's another story...

Bill

This is an interesting point - for those needing greater fine control of volume via the remote, reducing the output volume of the source (when possible) is one option. There's also a thread around here somewhere about folks adding devices between the pre-amp output and main input to attenuate the signal, achieving the same thing globally. I wouldn't do either unless there was a problem (and my 980H, the only source aside from the tuner that I use with the RR2150, has a variable output if I ever decide I need it), but it's something that folks have done successfully...

Just my 0.02 cents….

Interesting thought on 'designed on purpose' or 'that was how the volume knob was designed'.

I see this as more of picking a part that meets a specific nominal requirement for a specific price point.

What we are seeing from the end user is the variation or tolerance in the part.

In the walls of Outlaw…..There is some noise from end users…..
Outlaw reviews the variability as acceptable or not – asking questions like…. what is the cost of the current bill of material if we change the part? Is the part in spec? Or, did we purchased the part in quantity and would have to pay fees for returns.

Then, there is the replacement part: test, order, time of delivery, cost, does it affect contracts agreements, etc......

In the end: it is one thing to force a supplier to fix an incoming part problem - via the display issue.
It is entirely different to modify a part that may have a loose technical/physical spec.

well in my case, I can't control the vol/output level of my source, and I don't think anyone, not just me, has to pay for extra equipment to remedy a fault on something that you paid the full price for. I think the best thing is to try to live with it.
It has to do with the principle, not whether one can do it or not.

I must say I'm a bit disappointed. From all I heard at av123 and other places I had high (perhaps too high) expectations of the Outlaw CS...
In order get a sense of how bad this vol and source knob problem is I called Outlaw and talked to a gentleman from CS, and not only did he get edgy and short once I mentioned the problem, his answer to it was basically "I don't know what to tell you/that's the way it is", and never accepted it as a fault.

I really do want to like this receiver, and still haven't given up on it, so I hope if/when I order it, the SQ would make up for it.

Just when I thought these were the only 2 things I have to deal with, I just saw another post where the tuner doesn't work as it's described in the manual (something with resets not working the way they should)...

Hello Washburn,

I'm sorry to hear of this experience. Even the best CS folks occasionally have an off day. Give me a shout today (866-OUTLAWS) and I'd be happy to talk you through any of your concerns and make sure you're making the right decision for you.

Best,

Scott

Hello Washburn,
Just another 0.02-the source knob is NOT an issue for me. As others have posted, selecting the source w/ remote makes it a non issue. If you use the knob, just turn it SLOWLY. As for the volume via remote, it is a bit touchy, but I've learned to use very quick taps (holding the remote w/ one hand, and tapping with the other). It never crossed my mind to return it because of either of these two "issues". I do believe that you will be impressed w/ the SQ of the Retro. Good Luck!

Porta

Scott.
Thank you, sir.
I appreciate your kind offer.
will be contacting you shortly.

Washburn,

I usually don't make comments but I have one thought....

Outlaw allows you try their products for 30 days and you have an option to keep it or return it.

If the product doesn't suit you then return it, plain and simple.

I use a 2150 and have used a NAD C372 Integrated extensively . As stated in an earlier post, NAD gears their sound towards the low end, with very rolled off highs to me. I've never heard anything lacking so much in resolution , it sounded like the treble had been turned way down . I've read professional and user reviews who rave about this kind of sound .... so I guess some people like it like that or their a little hearing impaired . To each their own .


I thought the source knob or volume may bother me too , but it is a non issue. I turn the knob slowly, and I get where I need to . The volume is all about using your brain to figure out how to best adjust it.

Scott is the person to speak with about your concerns . He has helped me numerous times with concerns of mine and have always received excellent
service .


The bottom line though is the sound. Buy both and compare them,it's the only way to know . Without hearing them it's all just pie in the sky ..... it looks good but doesn't mean much . Keep what you like, return what you don't.

Looking at some other things/alternatives, now (nothing to do with vol knob etc), but the Outlaw is still in the running. I still haven't called Scott, I think after auditioning these other alternatives, and I still feel like going with OA, then I will call Scott, and talk more about what was concerning me.

In any case, I will update again shortly.

I can pass on my recent experience with the RR2150. I just added a sub to my system and I feel the bass management really has paid dividends to the result of my system. I added a M&K MX-150 THX (dual 12 ") sub to my Floorstanding Phase Technology PC9.1 speakers.

The most optimum configuration for sound quality was derived from puttting the bass-management switch at the 120Hz cross-over setting. Phase Tech low-freq spec is 32Hz but pales in comparison to the M&K sub. This removed of course some of the additional low-frequency from the Phase Tech. The bass-reproduction from the sub-woofer was superior carrying this signal and it also benefitted the sound from the Phase Tech. This I tested by maintaining the setting and just dropping out the sub. With the lower signal in the floorstanders the sound sounded muddy. Not any more with the setting at 120Hz.

I had always wondered if the sub would help the main speakers by off-loading that source signal. It certainly did largely in part the RR2150/Phase Tech could focus all their power in the higher-freq range. I suspect the lows frequencies shift also has quite an impact on the internal acoustic waves that were reduced from dropping the lower-freq from the floorstanders.

I as well wish the volume control was better but the rest of the strong features outweigh it.

I appreciate the retro solid look, the sound quality and the aforementioned bass-management.

made a decision:
gonna order B stock and try it out

and I have a "?":
is it ok to adjust the bass management/x-over switch on the back of the receiver WHILE receiver is ON and playing music? will it damage the receiver/speakers or the sub in anyway?
or do I have to turn everything off before adjusting that switch?
Thanks.

My choices have changed a bit now:
I'm gonna audition this amp first, and then audition the OL in a week or two: that should give me an idea on which way to go:

This is the other "contender" now: I know it's a completely different beast, but I'm curious about it:

I didn't see anything in the manual that recommended turning it off. The Outlaws could tell you for sure, but I'd probably at least pause playback or hit MUTE before doing it.

Thx Gonk.
I will be auditioning the MH first, and then next week or so the Outlaw (in house auditions for both)

...any thoughts on the MH? anyone heard/own this thing?

Actually, this was what I used after I decided that the RR2150 wasn't for me. It's a nice piece of equipment for the price (and you can easily find one used for $300 or so), but I found the sound a little thin and bass-deficient with my Dali Ikon 6's. I thought that the RR2150 produced a fuller and better balanced sound, but the MH was a little clearer. It might be a matter of power; for a while I used the pre-amp section of the MH with the amp section of the RR2150, which improved things a bit. Then when I thought about how much $$$ I had tied up in this arrangement, I figured that I should just upgrade to a better integrated and sell off the RR2150 and the MH - and that's what I did.

thanks for the feedback, Bill.
do you think a sub (I have an x-sub) might have improved the SQ of the MH? did you ever try the MH with one?

and what amp did you end up with after you sold the Outlaw and the MH?

(I have the same speakers that Gonk here uses with his Outlaw 2150...they're kind of laid back, and my be too soft for the MH, wich itself sounds kinda soft from what people say...but I like laid-back sound, so I'm gonna give it a try anyway, and the audition is risk-free, so why not, huh? )

No; this is an office system, and space is a bit limited. Bass is usually not a huge issue for me, but I think that's what made the MH sound a bit anemic - I couldn't really put my finger on the problem until I hooked the Dalis up to something better.

As for my current electronics, I was saving up for the Simaudio I-3 or I-5, when a PW-5000 hit A'gon. It's about ten years old, but it's supposed to be virtually the same as its successor, the I-5, but sells for about half the price because of age. It sounds fabulous

gotta wake this thread up again

hooked the Music Hall up:

first thing: I've NEVER lifted anything that looks this dainty and innocent looking and felt so much weight!! it's HEAVY for its size, and built like a tank:...love the feel of the very heavy and smooth vol knob (in contrast, this reminded me of the sloppy, plasticky vol knob of the Cambridge 640a amp that i auditioned a few wks ago...see earlier in this thread)

However, I'm not going to say anything about the SQ right now
just wanna see if there's any break-in factor etc,
but Mostly due to the following limitations I have right now:

1) I don't have the modded super pro DAC I usually use(sent it to a DAC shoot out at av123).
so I'm listening with the Onki dvd/cd changer direct. (the DAC makes a big difference in imo)
2) i'm using only 1 channel of the pre outs only to the R of the sub. (don't have 2 coax cables long enough for both channels). I know that running cables into both L and R of the xsub did make a difference even with the single sub out of the onki.
3) power cord is horrible..i mean horrible feeling (the power cord of the x-sub is better!). have to change that anyway, if it makes SQ improve or not...(although this amp has a reputation of being very finicky about power cords affecting its SQ, even according to Roy Hall himself, who openly commented about the power cords shipped with early batches especially being sub-par; it may have changed now, but it remains a sensitive amp to different power cords, according to all the internet research I did)

However, ASA I get the DAC back, or at least another coax cable for both pre outs to be connected to both L / R of the x-sub, I will do some crictical listening and post again.

I will only say 3 things for now:

1) listening to 13th step, I heard some muttered background vocals from Maynard I've never heard before (these lyrics are normally in parentheses when you look up the lyrics, and I've always wondered why I never really notice them...well now I know! reminder: this is without the DAC !)
i'm holding myself back from saying more now...I really want to listen with the DAC and both L [i]and R pre outs going to x-sub.[/i]

2)It's strange having no tone controls, but don't feel the need...at all. btw, it's 50 wpc, and out of a range of 00-80 on the digital vol control, i can't go past 30...at 30, it's already at my normal max listening level drives the x-ls classics super easy.

3) it looks gorgeous, simple, but elegant...very high-end and classy (I know that my other contender Outlaw has already lost in the war of looks...)
so until my next post, here are some quick photos (NOTE: the display is crisp, and only the letters/numbers can be seen; not the blue glow around the latters/wash-out that you see in these pics: camera did that)









will post a more detailed update when i get my DAC back. and then after that I will try the Outlaw and see how it stacks up against the MH..

[I][U]an annoyance: the remote of the Music Hall operates my CRT Toshiba TV with no rhyme or reason to the buttons. and of course the Toshiba remote also operates the music hall...

Wait a minute, you are all concerned about the UI of the RR2150 and "QC Issues", but you pass over the fact that the Music Hall wasn't designed to use a unique remote code as an annoyance? It would seem to me that this is much more a QC issue than any play in the source selector knob.

I have the feeling that like many of us you make a commitment to whatever you own and overlook its faults to justify your purchase.

I'd take a quirky source knob over an amp that you say comes with a "horrible" power cord . What is horrible about it ?

If the stock power cord is not good enough to use, I would question the wisdom of even selling such a unit. I don't buy the power cord making an amp better bit anyways .

I had considered this unit once, but the minimalist design was a turn off to me. The lack of tone controls was a big one, because while I understand their reasoning for this, in the real world ...... music is not recorded all the same way. Tone controls done right do nothing but add to an amp, in my opinion.

Happy testing

It's a handsome little unit - like the 2150, it seems like one that can photograph well. (I've gotten some really nice shots of the 2150 in our dining room with some natural light from the south-facing window.)

We kicked around the remote code issues a bit over at AV123 (I've heard of it happening before), and if your ears do pick that one rather than the 2150 I hope that one of the options discussed will take care of matters for you without too much cost.

thanks guys. i AM annoyed about the remote issue don't get me wrong, but with the new TV it will go away.

VERY BAD NEWS FOR ME NOW:
No B-stock Outlaw available: I really can't afford the new price, even for testing! I was really hoping to get one B stock, $649 is way over budget and I can get the MH a lot cheaper, but I'm gonna send the MH back anyway...(I can get it later for a lot cheaper somewhere)

IF ANYONE HAS ANY LEADS ABOUT WHEN B-STOCK WILL BE AVAILABLE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I WILL BE VERY THANKFUL.
THANKS.
I WILL ALSO BE INTERESTED IN ANY UNITS MEMBERS HERE ARE SELLING, IN THAT CASE PLS LET ME KNOW, TOO.

it's just badly put togther, feels flimsy, BUT it is detachable and i can just replace it in a sec. with a better one, so no need to get rid of the unit.

Yeah, there were a few around for a while, which to be completely honest I didn't quite understand. Are B-stocks all returns, or are there other reasons for them? Just curious…

Washburn, you might want to give Outlaw a call and ask them about B-stock on the 2150.

Tru blu, I think that B-stock can be returns, repaired units (somebody gets a unit with a bad display and gets it swapped out, then the unit with the fixed display becomes B-stock), review samples, or "scratch & dent".

I will Gonk, Thanks a lot.

btw, I did see your high-res close ups of the 2150. amazing. it's just a different look, and I think the MH is more of an "elegant" looking amp...

i'm panicking a bit 'cause no B stock, but i shouldn't i guess.
just gonna finish auditioning the MH for now, and who knows, by then a B-stock might pop up again.

PS: like in av123, is there no direct way to contact people here who sell stuff? how would one go about inquiring about products for sale? Can one just post a "WTB: used RR2150" here, or is it not allowed?

A number of years ago, Outlaw asked that the forum not be used to buy, sell, or trade used goods - it's a liability concern on their part, since they don't have a system in place to monitor such transactions and don't want folks running afoul of unscrupulous buyers or sellers in the absence of such a system. It's always possible that you might get a PM from someone looking to sell a 2150 now that you've said you are in the market for one, but it's not something that Outlaw officially condones.

ok. Thanks.
I hope I didn't violate any rules.

I think you're fine...

quick "?":
when you program a remote like Harmony (eg 659, which I have), is Outlaw available in their database of amps/receivers? or does one have to make the harmony "learn" outlaw codes manually?

also: has anyone compared the Outlaw SQ to SQ of Cambridge Audio Azur amps, for eg. 540A v2 or 640A v2?
just curious.

I believe that Harmony has Outlaw in the database, although I don't know about the RR2150 - the 990, 1070, and 950 may be all that they have. URC doesn't have very much Outlaw support, but there are lots of files around (see "Remote Files" in my sig).

FWIW - The RR2150 is so simple relatively speaking compared to a HT receiver and so few functions are used after the initial setup that its easy to use a learning remote. I setup a Mx-500 using nothing but learned buttons for a Toshiba TV, the RR2150 and a Squeezebox fairly quickly. I think the whole thing including macros took less than 2 hours with the majority of time removing the defaults from each screen.

Thanks. I guess I can make the Harmony "learn" if I ever get an Outlaw...kinda depressed now that I can't get a B stock even for an audition

anyway, is the Outlaw 2150 remote itself programmable? idk why, I just remember reading something like that somewhere...

test

The 2150's remote is programmable, but it doesn't support learning and I never did get it to control a DVD player (although I never tried too hard, as I had a space MX-200 lying around that gives me easy access to a bunch of basic stuff without thinking about it).

While this hardly seems worthwhile since you have a Harmony, but the Outlaw Remote does contain a JP-1 plug in the battery compartment and can be programmed using that connector.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP1_remote

i'm leaning towards keeping the MH.
it's a wonderfully musical player. and I'm really liking it so far....