Want to upgrade speakers

Is it just me, or do other people here find the overall sound signature of the RR2150 pretty "warm" ? I'm usually always turning the treble control up to about 1 o'clock for most music, which is fine.. but I'm also trying to figure out if the source of this warmth isn't also because of the synergy of my components.

I have Energy C3 speakers, and they're not bad for what I paid... but I can't help but think that when I auditioned them a couple of years ago, that I was hearing more mid range. Of course it could have been the difference in room acoustics, and certainly the amp they were using, but as it stands now...when I go into an audio store and check some stuff out, I feel that I'm missing out on some "breathy-ness" and midrange, and I'm craving it.

I listened to two pair of speakers yesterday, which made a very good impression on me. One was a pair of Sonus Faber's, which are bookshelves (can't remember the model) and were discounted because they're being discontinued (now $3500) and the other was a pair of Monitor Audio RS6's.

The RS6's had a more full sound, which is logical because of the 3 way design, but the Sonus Faber's were so much more detailed ! However, I might also characterize them as being pretty colored, especially in the mid range area. But damn, those mids were pretty damned lush. Big price difference too... The RS6's are only $1000 msrp vs $3600

What I'd like to know is if anybody here has any experience with speakers that really compliment the warmth that I'm getting with my current setup ? Speakers that are neutral, but have some really nice midrange and decent bottom range.

The RS6's are floor standing speakers, and I think they do a pretty good job with soundstage and separation, but they're not the most detailed speakers I've heard. Then again, they're bi-wireable, but weren't set up as such.

I'm not opposed to getting a sub woofer, but I don't want to spend too much money. Another thing to note, is that we recently put down some carpet (shag type area rugs, semi plush) and I think that the carpet is perhaps dampening too much of the upper frequencies. At least, that's what I feel like. I keep the speakers about 2 feet from the wall, and 6 feet apart, aimed straight, not towed in.

I asked the guy at Harvey Audio if I could bring the 2150 in, and hook it up to the RS6's, to which he said would be cool. But it still won't be the same considering the room size and all. I guess i just want to know what all of your experiences have been with different speakers and their synergy with the 2150.

For now, I want to keep it under $1500 Whether it's with a sub or not.

Doug

If you can accommodate floor-standing speakers with some space behind them take a look at Magneplanars. Either the MMG or the MG12 would be under your cost ceiling and they both got a "walks on water" review in a recent issue of The Absolute Sound. You can even try the MMG at home for 60 days free except for the freight. They sure made a believer out of me.
If your tastes require strong bass below about 45Hz or lots of "slam" you'll also want a good subwoofer, which you can couple to the MMG without breaking your cost ceiling. I understand the bass controls on the 2150 make it very easy.
One caution: the Maggies are not highly sensitive / efficient. They are 4-ohm speakers and need a high-current amplifier. The 2150 should be able to drive a pair of them to 110-db peaks, which is a bit more than a symphony conductor's ears get when the orchestra's playing fortissimo. Only you can decide if that's loud enough for you.

is using the treble knob that bad??

I love using my RR2150 with my Totem Hawks, which I got for $1375 used -- but I ended up getting an LFM-2 to fill out the bottom end. I decided on the Hawks over the outlaw bookshelf speakers mostly on aesthetics.

My only problem with the Maggies, is the very specific sweet spot. I do know how great magnaplanar speakers can sound, as I've auditioned more than a few, and love the signature they usually have. But once you even stand up, the imaging and sound stage deviates from what they were when you were in the sweet spot, and I would just find that too irritating, unless I had a dedicated listening room furnished with only acoustic treatments, and chairs. But that's not going to happen in an apartment.

@Lanion, nope. I don't mind the treble knob at all. In fact, it really does a good job at smoothing things out for me when I need that extra bit of upper range. I just have a feeling though, that the 2150 would like to be paired with a less warm sounding speaker, and with more midrange to boot. The Energy's can sound great with a good recording, but I'm missing the mid range that I desire, and I'm hoping it's not the fault of the 2150.

The Ascend Acoustics Sierra may also be worth a look if you have an interest in a bookshelf. They are supposed to have excellent bass for a monitor, but would leave enough room in the budget for a decent sub if desired.

I was looking at various reviews concerning the Magneplanar MG12's and could not find one mention of a negative remark with respect to how small the sweet spot is. I did of course read that placement and direction of set up is a bit finicky, but that is to be expected.

Wayne Garcia's review (Fi) really has me interested in them actually, Psyprof. There's a hifi shop in the City which sell them, so I"m going to give them a call to arrange an audition. I might even ask if I can bring the 2150. The price is very modest for such rave reviews and a planar speaker I think, so it might be worth checking out after all. Thanks !

@Chas... I don't know anymore. I'm finding myself feeling more comfortable with floor standing speakers at the moment, but your suggestion is dually noted. If only it were possible to audition every recommended speaker eh ?

Sweet Spot, I remember that Fi review very well - in fact that's what decided me on the 1.6QR's I'm listening to right now. As for the sweet spot, I agree about the change in tonality when one stands up - which would be less with MMG's because of their tipped-back position - but think the sound off-center is not too different from the sound of an actual orchestra from an off-center position. Too bad there aren't any true omnidirectional speakers available at anywhere near your price level (or mine, which is about the same). Enjoy whatever you end up with. BTW if you're feeling a bit adventurous take a look at www.nOrh.com.

There's one other thing I'm concerned about Psy.. And that is the power factor. Everything I've been reading about Maggies, including the baby MG12's states that you can never have enough power, especially for peak transitions when listening at moderate volumes.

I just fear that with the maggies, I'll eventually want to get a better amp, then of course a good pre amp etc etc.. and the money never stops flowing yada yada.

this thread in particular has me wondering but of course I'll do more research.

Doug

At the risk of sounding cheap, consider the combination I recently purchased. If I understand you correctly, you want a speaker with a rich sounding midrange but also with a good soundstage anywhere in the listening room.

Well, my RR2150 is currently working really well with a pair of Polk Audio Monitor 70s. They have FOUR 6.5 inch speakers in each floorstanding cabinet, so talk about detailed midrange - it's great for vocals, acoustic guitar, saxophone, piano. In order to get the most out of the treble frequencies, for some recordings I have to boost the RR2150 to about 1:00 like another poster said. It varies from recording to recording. But I was listening to symbols last night and they sounded like they were right in the room with me, just amazing. The Polk Monitor 70s only have one 1-inch tweeter, but it has good detail for horns. Just be careful and don't blow them out accidentally.

I also added a sub to this system, and ended up with a Velodyne VRP1200, which is not the most powerful, but it is adequate for music only purposes, especially sweet with jazz and rock.

Just my 2 cents. I know you could spend a whole lot more, but the nice thing with this setup is I didn't even need a power amp because the monitor 70s are very efficient.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, the soundstage for these speakers is about 14 feet wide, great sound from anywhere in the room. They are narrow towers so the dispersion is unobstructed. For placement, they are off the ground about 15 inches, about 12 inches out from the back wall, about 12 inches in from the side walls, toe-in about 30 degrees, and about 14 feet apart, so the intersection of the center stage is about 16 feet into the room of my 25 foot by 15.5 foot living room.

It sounds as nice as my old 2.1 system with separates, which included a pair of classic Polk Model 10s, a 180wpc power amp, equalizer, and preamp.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sweet Spot:
[qb] Is it just me, or do other people here find the overall sound signature of the RR2150 pretty "warm" ? I'm usually always turning the treble control up to about 1 o'clock for most music, which is fine.. but I'm also trying to figure out if the source of this warmth isn't also because of the synergy of my components.


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"warm" ..... no . pretty neutral . Yes, bass and treble controls, when done well, are our friend.
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I have Energy C3 speakers, and they're not bad for what I paid... but I can't help but think that when I auditioned them a couple of years ago, that I was hearing more mid range. Of course it could have been the difference in room acoustics, and certainly the amp they were using, but as it stands now...when I go into an audio store and check some stuff out, I feel that I'm missing out on some "breathy-ness" and midrange, and I'm craving it.


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Room acoustics play a huge role in how you hear what you hear. That's why in store auditions don't mean much . There are also so many variables in "how" you hear, that making sound consistent is impossible. The key is to enjoy the music for what it is, not dissect it for what it is not.
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I listened to two pair of speakers yesterday, which made a very good impression on me. One was a pair of Sonus Faber's, which are bookshelves (can't remember the model) and were discounted because they're being discontinued (now $3500) and the other was a pair of Monitor Audio RS6's.

The RS6's had a more full sound, which is logical because of the 3 way design, but the Sonus Faber's were so much more detailed ! However, I might also characterize them as being pretty colored, especially in the mid range area. But damn, those mids were pretty damned lush. Big price difference too... The RS6's are only $1000 msrp vs $3600

What I'd like to know is if anybody here has any experience with speakers that really compliment the warmth that I'm getting with my current setup ? Speakers that are neutral, but have some really nice midrange and decent bottom range.

The RS6's are floor standing speakers, and I think they do a pretty good job with soundstage and separation, but they're not the most detailed speakers I've heard. Then again, they're bi-wireable, but weren't set up as such.


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Again, in a studio you're not getting the sound you would in your own home .

Are your current speakers so bad, or do you have a case of upgrade-itis ? The latter is just a state of deficiency from your mind, and easily cured . There is always a better speaker , it never ends. The key is find satisfaction with what you do have. You bought your current speakers for "some" reason ..... yes ?
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I'm not opposed to getting a sub woofer, but I don't want to spend too much money. Another thing to note, is that we recently put down some carpet (shag type area rugs, semi plush) and I think that the carpet is perhaps dampening too much of the upper frequencies. At least, that's what I feel like. I keep the speakers about 2 feet from the wall, and 6 feet apart, aimed straight, not towed in.

I asked the guy at Harvey Audio if I could bring the 2150 in, and hook it up to the RS6's, to which he said would be cool. But it still won't be the same considering the room size and all. I guess i just want to know what all of your experiences have been with different speakers and their synergy with the 2150.


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That's hard to say because everyone hears differently . One's passion is another's poison .
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For now, I want to keep it under $1500 Whether it's with a sub or not.


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Aren't sub's kind of a "cheap" solution to add something to your speakers that should have been there in the first place ? With only one, it's not even that ,it's just a mono bass source . Nothing like real stereo from 2 floor standers .

-cheers
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rru2, Thanks. I actually have experience with those Polk's, since a friend of mine owns them. I think they sound very nice, especially given their price point, but at the same time don't feel that they're that much more of a step up from my Energy's. The sound signature is certainly different, but it's not the change I'm necessarily after.

I had spoken with some cynicism previously, about magneplanar type speakers, mostly due to their usually narrow sound field, but if the reviews of the MG12's are anything to go by, especially given their price, it might actually be worth going for it. I'm not totally convinced yet, but if I can get that maggie sound (which I do love immensely) without the problems of a totally narrow sound field, and if they're not underpowered by the 2150, I might have to bite.

@ Garth: A lot of what you say is true, and I know it. Room acoustics play such a huge role in what we hear. But there's still an underlying sound signature/characteristic for every brand and type of speaker which is usually identifiable in most common room situations.

If I told you that my room was of an odd shape, and extremely large, with huge ceilings and the acoustics of a church, I'd hesitate to even want opinions because of the delicacy of that situation. But I don't think that my living room is all that different from most other apartment dwelling situations. Yes, I have carpet on which my speakers will likely rest. And I can likely can and will change the position of the speakers if the improvement is that vast...

As it stands, my little listening area in the living room is as such: The speakers are 23" away from the wall (back) and the chairs we have are exactly 8' from the front speaker grills. There's a wall in back of the chairs which is 6' 7" wide that lets out into both the foyer on the left, and into the dining/kitchen area on the other side.

I actually just placed the left speaker closer to the right one, so that they're both reflecting off of that back wall. Maybe that isn't a good idea, not sure. Have to play around with sound. The one thing about having moved the speaker is that now it's directly in front of the book case, though it has an opening, so it's not solid.

I was thinking though, that if I bought the Magneplanar's I'd put them in front of my windows which has a much better view spatially, and would let them push air for a little more than 20' Of course I'd have to let my wife re-decorate

Are my speakers that bad ? No, they're not. But I think that I've grown out of what I once liked about them, especially after hearing other speakers which offered what I'm not able to get out of these. I need more fullness, space/soundstage and a lot more detail than the Energy C3's are able to deliver. For a budget speaker, they are certainly top notch though, and don't have any real complaints for what it's worth. If I did have one, it would be that they're not as fast as I'd like, or tend to be a tad congested when there's a lot going on instrumentally.

As for subs being a cheap substitute and all, I'll have to disagree with you there. Perhaps in some cases this may be true for massively expensive full range speakers, and then also dependent on what music is being played through them. But let's say that we're talking about organ music with the lowest of low frequencies that need some real power. I don't think that budget speakers usually fit the criteria for that kind of thing, usually.

Anyway, yeah.. I do also have the "itis", who doesn't ? I mean, does it ever really stop ? You hear something you like, and you want it. You hear something else, which is closer to the idea of what you wanted, even more than the first thing you bought, and so you sell, and buy again. That's just how it is I suppose.

Anyway, I just want to know if the 2150 will be able to push the MG12's anywhere remotely to where they need to be in order to be satisfied until I upgrade to a better amp in the future.

Doug

A fellow (whom is a sound/recording engineer) over at the Steve Hoffman forums assured me that even with the 2150's amp, I'd be pretty good to go with the Magneplanar MG12's, so that's very encouraging. His other opinion was also that the more power the better though, as with all Mag's. So, my next thought was this:

Hook up some M2200's to the 2150 Question now:

I was made and offer (waiting for price) by someone on that forum to buy a pair of his M200's which were supposedly sitting in his closet, because of a change in direction (I guess in what he was using) and he forgot about them ? His wife wants them out of there so... lol Though I'm not sure of how you can forget that you have a pair of mono blocks sitting round doing nothing ?

Questions are:

1. Is it worth it to just get the 2200's over a pair of M200's, or are they exactly the same in terms of power ratings/consumption ?

2. If I hook either the M200 or 2200 up to the 2150, will I be totally bypassing the 2150's amp, or will I be able to route it so that I have combined power from both sources ? I'm guessing it's the former scenario, since there'd be too great a variation in voltage and the sound signature would also run amok.

3. Does the balanced input on the 2200 make a huge difference for stereo applications ?

Edit: What do you guys think is a fair asking price for used M200 ? The guys says that there are only about 10 hours on them, though who knows if that's really the truth ? B Stock 2200's are $275 and so I can't see paying more than $200 ? What do you think ?

double post

Mistake

Offer sounds sweet. $300 for the pair of M200's. What do you guys think ?

$300 for a pair of M200's sounds like a good deal.

So then, do you think that there's no technical reason to spend more and just get the 2200's ?

The 200 and 2200 are just this side of identical. The only appreciable difference that I know of is the addition of balanced inputs on the 2200, which isn't going to do you any good anyway with a 2150.

Great, so it's settled then. $300 sounds nifty for a pair of Maggie powering amps. Thanks Gonk !

In answer to question 2 from Sweet Spot:

No, you cannot combine the output of the M200/M2200s with the 2150 unless you use an external electronic crossover and biamp the speakers.

Hi Sweet Spot and all, I just got around to reading the thread on Maggies' power needs, or alleged needs. My Outlaw 990 (of course) drives a two-generation-old Adcom GFA535, spec'd at 100 wpc into 4 ohms, via a Yaqin tube buffer (very highly recommended), so my 1.6QR's are underpowered by from 3 to 6 dbw according to the folks in that thread. I'm not saying they're mistaken, but living in a condo as I do I rarely turn the 990 up past the -10db volume setting on CDs and the system sounds very, very good to me.
I think it would take something like the clang and thunderclap in the old London "Das Rheingold" to light the Adcom's distortion lights, and I'd better wait until my wife's out before trying it.

Sweet Spot,

I have also looked at the thread you provided and included a link for you to read from the Magnepan Users Group Forum on recommended power ratings for the different Magnepan speakers. Your receiver should not have a problem driving a set of MMGs or MG12s. As you can see from my signature, I am running two pairs of Magnepan IIIa speakers using a 5-channel Parasound amp rated at 140watts @8ohms and 200watts @4ohms. It is more than enough for me and my family in our dedicated home theater room in our house. Here's the link to the MUG Forum recommendations for each Magnepan ever made: http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.html

Slbenz

Thanks for the link, Silbenz, but I am puzzled that the Magnepan Users Group would be referring to recommended amplifier output at 8 ohms, when all the Maggies I know about are 4-ohm speakers. It's NOT safe to assume that because an amp has "sufficient" power at 8 ohms it will work well at 4; good ones (including all Outlaw stuff) will but many integrated amps and receivers will just overheat. Never try to use an amp whose specs don't list a 4-ohm power figure with a 4-ohm speaker.
So I'm afraid I don't trust the MUG table on this point.

Psyprof1,

I couldn't agree with you more. Never understood why the MUG forum have the recommendations in 8ohms but most, if not all the reviews I have seen on different Magnepan speakers seem to do the same thing for power recommendations. But since we are talking about Outlaw products, none of them should have difficulty driving Magnepans. Especially the MMG or MG12 models. Also, when you see some of those discussions about power, it is amazing to see people use 600watt/channel amps to power their Maggies to their fullest. At those levels, I would expect bass slap to occur. Used to do that when I owned a set of Eminent Technology LFT-IVs with my current Parasound amp.

Slbenz

Thanks for the support guys. I have both good and bad news though. Most of it is a really long story, which I'll link you guys to when I'm done typing the post for the Steve Hoffman forum people.

The bad news first: For my current living situation, the MG12's are not truly appropriate for a couple of reasons. Not what you'd think though: Reason one being that I do a lot of my current listening not only just sitting, but while doing stuff around the living room area and kitchen.

The sound field or "sweet spot" as it were, is certainly best found while in the sitting position rather than standing, no matter the position (at least in that room). The room its self was about 12'W x 20'D and had some treatment on the ceiling. The room was sealed by one of those big ass metal doors you'd find in a restaurant kitchen where the dairy and meat goes. Closed that way too.

The second reason I figured in the short period of time I got to audition them, was that they seem absolutely phenomenal for acoustic music and vocals, as well as jazz... But they really don't seem to have the type of impact nor synergy needed for heavier music like rock..and for symphonic music, I got the impression that the low end was really lacking. I felt that the timpani in the piece I was listening to was lurking in there somewhere, but was being held back by some shield, and that was a bit unnerving to me.

Might it have been the amp ? Who's to say. It was an integrated McIntosh (don't know which model, because for reasons I'll say later, it is a moot point) that put out 140 wpc.

Now the good news. I actually really LOVED them when certain pieces were played. They absolutely shine with acoustic guitar, vocals, horns and woodwinds. Coltrane's sax was like...right there ! But what this means to me, is that I would absolutely want a dedicated listening room for such a pair of speakers.

For my current dwelling situation, that's not possible. It's an apartment. When we get a house, I will not hesitate to buy some Manepans for a dedicated room.

The speakers were not bi-wired either, so I can only imagine ... Also, I just can't get over the clarity and dynamics that these puppies bring out of music ! They're so revealing for their price range I think. The best part about them IMO, is how you can make such an obvious differentiation between what music coming out of a "box" (aka typical speakers) sounds like, vs. music that sounds like it's right there in the room with you, being played live.

It was quite depressing actually, having to walk out of there knowing that I had to continue to search for something a bit better (different)than my current speakers, but wanting something with the same "out of the box" attributes that the MG12's (or perhaps applies to all maggies) are able to deliver.

Another point I felt was critical, was how the salesman behaved. He was an absolute A-HOLE. But that, I'll re-post after I finish typing it for the SH forums, which I had already started. Probably tomorrow, if I still have the energy or care anymore.

Doug

It sounds like you could use some omni or multi directional speakers ..... that's the only way to get a very large sweetspot .

For what it's worth, I also am up and down -moving all around often while listening to music . I've been fortunate enough to own some Bose 601 II's since 1982 . They have a huge sound stage and the sweet spot is everywhere . The bass is incredible , easily into the mid/upper 20's . I bought these because I can't stand regular radar-beam-sound type speakers that you have to sit in front of to get good sound. If I have to be sitting in one spot I'd rather use some headphones

You can still find some used these days on ebay . Series II and III are the best. The woofers will need re-foamed, or like me I bought new-old stock woofers from them a few years ago for mine. I would not touch a current Bose product with a ten foot pole, but these were a real jewel for the maligned company . Too bad they changed them .

Another option may be something like some Ohm speakers. They often sell unlisted models in which they use recycled old cabinets and put in their current drivers and crossovers . These are the best deals from them, but not listed online . I had considered them before getting new woofers for my 601's, but I decided to keep the Bose instead. They should have models to fit in your budget . If you contact them, they recommend models by room size, and they may have something for you .

Mirage also has some omni- directional speakers, but they seem to have been going down hill over the years.

Think outside the "box" .

-cheers

Sweet Spot,

Another line of speakers to consider that can give you that "open" sound is Definitive Technology. Their BP line which uses front and rear drivers can give a similar open, sound like the Mirage and Ohm line of speakers. My brother-in-law owns the BP speakers with the built-in subs to each tower and likes them a lot. Like Magnepans, you need to give them some room to "breath" to perform at their best.

Slbenz

Garth, those Ohm speakers sound like an interesting concept, but beyond my price range for the moment. I figure that I won't be spending any more than between $1000 and $1300. Depends though. I was going to buy that pair of M200's for $300, which figures into that $1000 which I was going to spend on the Mannepans, so I'd like to try and stay within that range. If I hear a pair that is phenomenal for $1500 (no sub needed) I'd pony up I guess.

But I can't see spending upwards of 3k until my wife and I have bought a house. Priorities and all.

Doug

Sweet Spot, sorry to hear the MG12's won't serve you. One slight correction: the MG12's and MMG's are not biwirable, since they don't have separate connections for the tweeters and woofers as the MG1.6's do. Of course 1.6's also have jumpers for normal, "monowire" operation. Mine are biwired from the A and B outputs of the Adcom GFA535 (I leave both buttons pushed) and I THINK I hear a worthwhile difference in treble detail and clarity, but without A/B comparison I could be hearing autosuggestion. If I get some higher-priced speaker wire, e.g., Mapleshade, I'll go back to monowire with Mapleshade jumbers.

I mean, jumpers.

Thanks Psy... I really thought that they did though for some reason. Don't worry about me though. I really think that the MG 12's will eventually work their way into one of the systems I'll have down the road, since I was really wow'd by their clarity and presentation. Acoustic guitar, vocals, brass, woodwinds etc.. are so sublime when coming out of them, so I can certainly see having a dedicated room for such a reason.

For now, I'm going to experiment with different placement of my Energy Speakers and such, and then perhaps save a bit for some tower speakers.

These look very interesting for $1500

I'd love to keep the price around $1000-$1300, but if I hear something phenomenal which deserves to have a bit more money put into it, I'll always consider such a thing. Then again, I'd also love to get a new Cartridge, such as the Dynavector 10x5, or similar.

We shall see. I also have to seriously consider that I'm now looking for another job. Gave my place 2 weeks, and tomorrow is my last day. (way too much stress at that hospital)

I'll check back for any suggestions and updates.

Doug

They sure do look interesting - and I see they're less than $2500 with a subwoofer. From the reviews at the Salk site I wonder if with these babies the electronics might become the limiting factor! If you get them please let us know how they sound.

One point of caution: The frequency response chart that's linked to the speaker page actually cuts off at about 200 Hz, so you have to take the 40-Hz bass limit on faith. It would have been nice to see the bass performance.

Ditto on the caution . Those 5" drivers just won't cut it . These will lack deep bass, and adding a sub to floor standing speakers just seems like a waste of space to me ...... but that's me

And again, since you like to move around while listening , these are typical "ray gun" speakers . They'd likely leave you wanting for more dispersion.

About the Ohm's ..... the one's that use use the reconditioned cabinets with new drivers/hardware are ___not listed___ on their web site. You have to fill out the "speaker selector" portion, then they'll email with speaker options. The unlisted speakers are usually much less than the retail for the all new ones. They may or may not fit into your price range, the only way to know is ask because they are __not listed__ .

I'm thinking of a pair of bedroom speakers, the Polk Audio Monitor 60s, with 3 drivers of 5.25 inches and a tweeter. But I'm waiting for the price to be right.

They will need a sub, but that will be a convenient excuse to move the 130 watt velodyne sub out of my living room and into the bedroom so I can order a 15 inch sub for the living room.

P.S.-- What happened to my game day post? LOL