990 Bass Mangement Update

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Edited by admin:
Please see post by Scott later in this thread where an update on these issues has been presented in more detail and the forthcoming software update to address these issues is discussed.
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Got my new 990 for Christmas and I am posting to confirm some of the bass management issues reported here. I have the problem associated with setting my speakers to large with the sub set L/R+sub. I also have a problem with the speakers set to small, XO at 40Hz. I get a full range signal to my sub on analog inputs...even on BYPASS!

Unfortunately, I got this unit as a gift from my wife. I had mentioned to her that the Outlaw was one of three processors I was considering as a replacement to my aging Adcom GTP830. Now I have defective processor to replace an old one, and Oulaw does not seem forthcoming on when the update will arrive.

Yep, I believe we're all in the same boat when it comes to analog bass management. I spoke to Outlaw last week and they said that was one of the issues under consideration for the firmware upgrade; Still no ETA on the upgrade though.

Just got a message from tech support that says the 990's bass management "works as intended", but they are looking into the "L/R+SUB" engagement when crossed over a certain way.

Hmmm. Full range output to the sub on "bypass" mode from an analog signal path is the intended function of the bass management? I am wondering what bypass really means then. Guess I will have to wait until Steve gets back from lunch to find out.

After talking with Steve @ Outlaw, I am now getting even more upset. No slam on him, but what he is telling me just does not make any sense at all. After some RTA testing tonight, I will know how deep this rabbit hole goes. I hope I am wrong.

When you guys say "analog" you are referring to two channel analog inputs not the 7.1 analog inputs?

I can confirm that while running low frequency sweeps through the two channel analog inputs in "bypass" there was no bass management. The sub was audible as high as 1kHz!!!!

This is very puzzling as Outlaw claims bass management is applied no matter what unless speakers are set to large. This doesnt bother me as I don't use the 2 channel analog inputs.

My 990 is configured as follows: speakers/small, 80Hz crossover all channels.

Yes, at least I'm referring to the 2 ch analog inputs. My concern is there is no bass mgt. when the mode is set to "stereo", which from what I read, I thought the 990 would do.

Ok, that is correct. There is no bass management on the 2 channel analog inputs unless using PLII.

Again, not a big deal if you don't use those inputs.

I want to clarify how bass management works with "Large" and "Small" speakers in bypass modes:

1) With a digital input (coax or optical) and the Model 990 in bypass mode with speakers set to "small" you will receive a sub signal relative to the crossover point set for these speakers. In this mode you bypass surround DSP, but not bass management.

With all settings as described above, but speakers set to "large", you get no signal to your subwoofer. The L/R + Sub settings only work when not in bypass modes (such as Stereo and Upsample).

2) Analog bypass (bypass for regular two channel analog inputs) behaves a little bit differently. With speakers set to "small" you will receive a signal to the sub. However, since you are using an analog input connection, you will bypass both surround DSP and bass management as BM occurs in the digital domain. In order to receive a signal at your sub, the L/R signal is duplicated and sent on to your sub full range. Under these configuration settings you will need to activate the crossover in your sub to aid high frequency roll off.

As noted above, if your speakers are set to "large" you will get no signal to your subwoofer. The L/R + Sub settings only work when not in bypass modes (as in Stereo and Upsample).

Scott

After extensive testing last night with Avia and True RTA 5.1, I think I have nailed the problem with MY 990. I am not saying this is a production wide problem, just that this is the response of MY unit. If Outlaw tech support would just be a little more open minded and a little less evasive on the problem....they might learn something by reading this.

First of all I have bass management issues on analog two channel inputs with speakers set to small. Tech support actually is advising against large setting with L/R+sub. I think the problems with the L/R +Sub setting are the same as the problems encountered with the small speaker setting.....full output subwoofer signal.

From my testing with Avia and True RTA5.1, when changing crossover points THERE IS NO MEASURABLE DIFFERENCE IN SUB RESPONSE with speakers set to small on two channel analog inputs using modes of Stereo, Bypass & Upsample. Only the L/R response changes. The freq. reproduction of the sub is limited ONLY by the response of the driver in your sub. It is a full range signal no matter what (mine dropped off at around 1khz). This is a fact in my unit and contradicts what I was told yesterday; namely that bass management is applied in Stereo and Upsample but not in Bypass. Outlaw said in bypass with speakers small, a copy of the L/R is sent full range to the sub. Bass management (with proper crossovers)are applied in Stereo and Bypass. This is definately not happening. True, there is some management being applied (as I will go into below) but it has ZERO effect on the Sub signal in ANY MODE.

There is some management of the L/R speakers. When set to small, the crossover for the L/R is actually reversed from what is presented on the screen. 40hz is 200hz, 200hz is 40hz. I confirmed this with the RTA. Regardless of the setting, the sub is playing (in my case) up to 1khz. If the same is true in large speaker setting, there is your muddy double bass problem. Full range to the fronts and FULL RANGE to the sub. I encountered this problem with the large setting and L/R+Sub.

There are a couple of questions being begged here. If, as Outlaw states, the 990 bass management is "working as it was designed", one must question the intention of the designer. I cannot envision a scenario where multiple global crossovers are used for multiple speakers that a full range signal to the sub would be beneficial.
Secondly, if the bass management for analog sources in "Bypass" mode simply copies a full range signal of the left and right speakers and sends it to the sub (as was told to me by Outlaw yeaterday), what is happening on the sub signal in 7.1 "bypass"? I bet it is a full range copy just like 2.1 channel "bypass" (too tired to confirm this).
Lastly, Steve at Outlaw told me "all home theater processors digitize the analog inputs". While this may well be true (I have no idea if every single one does), one must question the accuracy of statments like "Pure analog mode" and "pure bypass" listed on the product information sheet.
Pure analog from a redbook cd does not reproduce a .1 channel to my knowledge, let alone a full range copy of the L/R it.
My unit will be going back to Outlaw for a couple of reasons.

1. It does not work the way it should regardless of what Outlaw says. There is no effective way to integrate a subwoofer and listen to CD material on an analog connection. I would rather return the Outlaw than throw away my subwoofer.
2. I can't take the chance of waiting until after my trial period is up to see if it will be fixed.
3. They won't extend my trial period.

Scott I was posting at the same time you were. I am clear about the small speaker setting and bypass mode with analog inputs.. full range to the sub. What I can't figure out is why the crossovers don't affect the subwoofer in Stereo and Upsample modes using the same two channel analog inputs. I get full range in ALL modes, and only the L/R ever gets cut.

Capt, may I ask why you are so concerned with no bass management through 2 channel analog inputs? Do you use these inputs?

As Scott states, it is possible to integrate a subwoofer via analog connection by activating the crossover on your sub.

BTW, there is bass management via 7.1 bypass. The only place I've found no bass management is through 2 channel analog inputs.

Braidkid

Sure you can ask, no problem. I still prefer the sound of analog and want to continue using my Adcom cd player (no digital out). I love the way it sounds.

As far as using the crossover in my sub...yeah that is a possibility. But I don't want to have to flip the switch every time I change from a digital to analog source. Which, as I understand it, if the digital input bass management is working properly I would have to do.

Sounds like the ICBM may still be the best option for pure analog listening with proper bass management.

It is worth noting that Outlaw tech support actually started to recommend to me installing my old ICBM to solve some of these problems.

I say started to recommend....then they reconsidered. for some reason.

While I am at it, I guess I could just get another pre/pro with 7.1 pre outs and use its bass management with the signal fed to the 990.

Capt,

Couldn't you do as Braidkid pointed out and plug the CD player into the 7.1 input (this should provide bass management provided you are not using the 7.1 input for something else)? I use a digital connection from my cheapo Denon CD player and let the DACs in the 990 do the work so I have not tested this myself.

What i dont understand here is the fact that There is PROBLEMS with the outlaw 990 and it seems that outlaw people are only interestes in telling us what works instead of confirming the problems.

Scott keeps saying in stereo Bypass mode...


This has nothing to do with Bypass mode, The Capt was reffering to NOT in the bypass mode.


THUS this IS a verified bug as they are not Denying it. They are just 'running around thse issue' like a politition.


Also I cannot understand people responses as 'why do you even use the analog' etc. These people are just admiting that there is problems and You just have to live with a product that does not do what it is suppose to do.

Or worse, people thing everyone has to have the same setup and use the processor the same way, If this was the case then why offer other configurations to begin with.


As it stand i will be returning my unit as well, and I will be informing others if i dont even get a simple confirmation of the errors i posted in an earlier post.

I think that some 990 owners have found that in their case they are using nothing but digital input, which is probably where the comment "why use analog" comes from - for them, it didn't provide a benefit. Heck, until I hooked up the SMS-1 recently I didn't really have any analog sources to think about.

As I understand it, Outlaw is fully aware of the bug in the bass management and is working on both a software fix and some sort of official summary of exactly what is currently going on with the 990's bass management. As I mentioned in another thread recently, I contacted Outlaw directly earlier this week to try to put together a summary of how the bass management was designed (which as you have discovered gets complex when you try to look at all scenarios) to help everybody around here understand what is going on. I was told that an official statement was going to be more appropriate (something that would more clearly run down the issue rather than add to the "running around"). Based on that, I feel comfortable saying that they are actively working on this issue and plan to give all of us exactly the sort of confirmation/summary you are looking for.

Gonk,

From reading your posts, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and willingness to help other Outlaws. Heck, I think you have even helped me a time or two.

But the issue is not really a defective unit or how the bass management is "supposed" to work. That will be Outlaws problem in the near future. MY issue is that I am under the 30 day timer. I know there is a problem with my 990, and I really want to keep the unit. When I called Outlaw tech support they WOULD NOT ADMIT THERE WAS A SINGLE PROBLEM. They immediately closed the service ticket and sent me the response that I posted above..."the 990's bass managment works as designed". In talking with tech support, I tried to explain the full range sub signal in Stereo and Upsample and what I got in return was stock answers read off the computer screen about how the unit was SUPPOSED to work. It is very hard to bring problems to light when the tech people are committed to thinking only about how it is supposed to work. I am telling you how it DOES work...and there are some notable differences.

My request is simple. Acknowledge (i.e TEST the thing) that a problem exists. State, in writing, a committment to providing an acceptable fix. Lastly, provide even a rough timetable for the fix.

I get those....and my unit stays with me and Outlaw keeps my money. I don't, and the unit goes back next week.

I agree that this request is reasonable, and I'm optimistic that something along these lines is pending. Some of the senior management may be away at CES (there's no official Outlaw presence, but I suspect some folks are probably there in research mode), so they may have to wait until next week to get an official response reviewed, but I trust that Outlaw will dig into it properly and fix you up. My faith alone may not be enough to keep you happy, though, and that's what the 30-day return window is there for.

As announced previously, we have been and continue to work with the software engineers at Etronics to provide an extensive software update for the Model 990. These things simply do not happen overnight. However, we truly appreciate the time and effort of those users who have experienced these bugs as well as the patience they’ve exhibited while we worked to resolve them. Unfortunately, the nature of this thread and the frustration experienced by some of these users has forced us to make the following announcement sooner (and thus somewhat less detailed) than we would have liked.

While it is true that some bug fixes can be implemented quickly (such as we were able to provide in the past on the Model 970/1070 platform) others, due to increased complexity, just take longer. In the case of the Model 990, its early adopters made a handful of requests for feature additions and modifications. Couple this with some bass management anomalies, continued research towards an acceptable, high performance implementation of Auto EQ and a lengthy test and retest process and you can image the time to release is long.

While we don't know how long the testing will take, an update will be forthcoming. These anomalies will be addressed via a downloadable software fix. Like all software fixes, extensive field-testing will insure that other unanticipated problems do not crop up. What we will not do is rush a fix to market that is NOT RIGHT.

For the time being, there’s a very simple work around to receiving a full range sub signal in stereo or upsample mode with an analog input signal: activate your sub’s crossover. For many people with subwoofers like the LFM-1 or LFM-2 the sub x-over can remain in bypass, as its high frequency roll off is already quite steep.

We appreciate your patience and ask that you hang in there just a bit longer as we believe the update will add a level of refinement unrivaled in the Model 990’s category. These fixes are coming, and as we have demonstrated in the past, we will not leave our customers hanging. The above notwithstanding, we are sorry that we have not been more communicative along the way. Often we must walk the fine line between providing accurate/factual updates while at the same time avoid creating unreasonable timing expectations. We were wrong to close the communication lines on this and wish to reassure you that we are hard at work morning and night on two separate continents to resolve these issues for you as quickly as possible.

Best Regards,

Scott

I agree.

Given the number of extremely knowledgeable users available to you via this forum, are you also considering using their resources as beta testers for this software release?

Invariably the wider range of equipment and settings available to these users will cover ground that your lab testing will not.

Updates are most certainly beta tested externally for precisely this reason.

Best,

Scott

Scott and company already know that my 990 is available as a test rig for new firmware, and I'm sure there are others - they may not use all of us, but some of us will probably be asked to poke around at whatever patches come out of all this. I suspect that they'll keep the patch testing fairly quiet (don't want to get us all eagerly anticipating a new patch if it isn't ready for prime time), but in the past they've done some good external testing. Jump back to 2002 and the hiss problems experienced by some users with the early Model 950's - the most notable problems were reported by soundhound (probably due in large part to his insanely efficient horn speakers), and both development and testing of revisions included him.

I also agree with not rushing the fix. Lets get it right.

To Scott and all the Outlaws I want to say thank you for addressing the issue. While you stopped short of delivering a timeline , I respect the constraints you are working under and I am MUCH more comfortable allowing you to work this out while my trial period expires.

Just please...please don't take the subwoofer out of the mix in stereo analog or set the crossover points fixed at some ridiculously high level.

Thanks for your attention to this matter. By the way, if you need someone to volunteer to beta the upgrade before release... my hand is up!

The Capt.

Of course, some of use would prefer it exactly the opposite for stereo analog (ie no subwoofer please)

I suppose this goes to the heart of my other post where I suggested that knowledgeable users are happier having explicit control, rather than being frustrated by implicit control via loosely defined monikers (eg LR+sub) and speaker setting side-effects.

That, my friend, is what BYPASS should be for. But you see the implicit problem with those who MUST keep speakers set to small. There can be no true bypass with a global crossover relegating your speakers to small without an available crossover point set around 20 hz! This is where I think Outlaw ran into a hitch and solved it by sending a full range signal in bypass with small speaker settings. Odd solution to a vexing problem. Personally I don't care about bypass. I will accept digital manipulation to let my sub accompany my mains for CD analog listening . If one's ouboard DAC is a $10,000 gem, then I would guess bypass to be more of an issue...and the full range copy of the mains that goes with it an even bigger one.

Cool, a few weeks ago I hooked up my CD player to the CD inputs of my 990. I assume that is what you mean by analog input. I notice vocals, etc. out of my sub which I thought was strange. I was going to post something here when I got the chance to ask about this. It looks like this is the problem I was having. I also notice the music sounded muddy.

I have a few questions:

1. Is the muddy sound due to the overlap of the sub with the mains? I assume phase issues, etc.

2. The Capt stated that the crossover setting where incorrect i.e. 200Hz was 40Hz, etc. So what am I getting with the crossover set to 80Hz

3. Can I run the CD player into the 7.1 L and R inputs and have things work OK?

I was also wondering when a software release was going to make it out, and got that answered too.

Thanks

Chriso2,
The muddy sound is indeed the overlapping bass from the LR + sub reproducing the same signal with phase problems. The bass management is a scrambled egg mess inside the 990. Completely useless.

Regarding the crossover points: I was able to reproduce the reversed crossover (40 is 200) twice while testing with True RTA....and I tried it 5-6 times where I could not reproduce it (i.e 40 was 40). This is very concerning because it implies another as yet undiscovered "factor" that affects the behaviour of the crossover.

AS to running cd into the 7.1, I am not sure. Others here have posted that the 7.1 bass management and the digital bass management works as intended. I am not so sure it does. I also do not know how those inputs will recognize the signal. I am getting more and more convinced that the digital input crossovers are not working as well. My pioneer on digital out to the 990 playing a standard CD gave nearly identical response curves on True RTA as my analog input CD...that is to say it sent a full range to the sub on stereo & upsample.
I don't want to start another hornets nest so I have been refraining from posting that data. I am sure some people will disagree. I don't want a fight I just want it fixed.

Waiting for an update as well,

The Capt

Capt, when you ran your sweep using RTA, were your mains off? I find it surprising you had full range sub signal using digital input.

I have confirmed BM is applied when using 7.1 analog input.

My first post... please be kind

I'm planning to use the Outlaw 990 in a 7.1 home theater system with "large" front speakers and a seperate subwoofer (probably the SVS PB12-Ultra/2). I have been reading through all of the various threads on the bass management issue and I'm getting more confused instead of more enlightened. If someone could just answer this one question it would greatly ease my mind about making this purchase:

Will the Outlaw 990 work correctly with "large" fronts and a seperate sub in 7.1 mode?

I was all set to place my order until I stumbled across these threads. Any clarity that can be provided on this issue would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

How are you planning to configure your sub? I am not aware of any problem with large fronts and the sub set to "on," but there has been some discussion of problems with the "L/R+Sub" setting and the way the crossover setting is applied (a problem that seems to be related in at least some cases with "rolling over" from 200Hz back to 40Hz). Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to do any testing in my system to try to get a firm understanding of what modes may or may not cause problems, so I'm basing my response on some of the comments I've been reading lately.

I'm planning on using a pair of AV123 Rocket RS850 speakers with an SVS PB12-Ultra/2 subwoofer. Since I don't have any of these speakers in my possession yet, though, I can't say with any certainty where I'll dial in the subwoofer crossover until I have them in my home theater room... I just wanted to make sure that the 990 doesn't completely cut off the subwoofer output when the left and right front channels are set to "large". I could have sworn I read that in one of these threads, but like I said they're all starting to blur together, which is why I was asking the question. Thanks...

The 850's probably don't need to run as "large" - their -3dB point is 36Hz, which is actually a little higher than my Studio/60's -3dB point (I've got my crossover set at 60Hz, by the way). I'd suggest running the 850's as small with either a 40Hz or even a 60Hz crossover. This will let the 850's pass off the lowest frequencies to the sub while still keeping in the mix in the regions where it is still relatively flat.

And the bass management problems I've been reading about won't affect a 7.1 setup as you've described?

Since I won't be listening to music very often in the home theater I can certainly wait for 2-channel bass management issues to be worked out, but if there are show-stopper problems with BM in 7.1 mode I'm going to have to look elsewhere.

Thanks.

That is correct, the bass management problems do not appear to affect that scenario.

Braidkid,

Yes the mains were off. I became suspicious when I was playing around with Scott's suggestion to implement the subwoofer's internal crossover as a fix to the full range analog signal. My irk was that I would have to flip the switch on the Sub everytime I changed input because the digital ones supposedly worked. As intended, the Sub's crossover limited the bass response on analog sources. But I still did not want to keep switching the sub so I consigned myself to running digital out on my pioneer and using that as my CD transport until the fix comes.

Lo and behold! Engaging the crossover on the Sub with the now digital signal produced the same results...dramatically cut (and now normal) bass response from the sub. That is when I unplugged the mains and broke out the RTA for confirmation.

If yours work, great. I don't think mine do.

Thank you, gonk. Now all I need to do is decide whether to wait until the 7700 is released or order a 990/7215 right now.

I am thinking about purchasing the 990 and the new Model 7500 (when available). I am also going to replace my current speaker system with the Revel Concerta system. The F12 is a full size speaker and I also have the SVS PC-Ultra. I listen to my iPod which is analog. My question is will setting these mains to large and the sub at a 40hz cut off work?

http://www.revelspeakers.com/

corrected url.

With the mains set to large, the crossover setting for the mains is not used unless you select "L/R+Sub" for the subwoofer setting (in which case the idea is to send a duplicate of the material below the crossover point to the sub, creating a sort of "double bass"; this is one scenario that appears to be having some trouble using the current firmware). According to this link , though, the -3dB point for the F12's is 52Hz, which suggests to me that the best way to integrate the F12's and the PC-Ultra would be to set the mains to small and use probably a 60Hz crossover.

I'm still a bit confused. You say you did have BM with crossover engaged on the subwoofer. But did the sub roll off properly with crossover disengaged (bypass) on your sub using digital input?

I have the same question. About the BM in 2-CH PCM digital connection. Did anyone confirm by testing that the 990 performs correctly (in both Large/LR+Sub and Small/Sub on) according to its set crossover points? Put another way, does the 990 send correctly cross-overed bass to the sub for PCM CD signals in Bypass or Upsample mode?

Braidkid,

Nope.